Author Topic: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte  (Read 9803 times)

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« on: July 23, 2020, 04:43:22 PM »
When I renovated our house in the 08/09 timeframe, the kitchen was left mostly untouched except for some new flooring, wall paint and baseboards.  The house was built in 1971 and the kitchen hasn't seen much in the way of updates through the years.  Even the appliances are ancient...the dishwasher predates our occupancy, the range was bought when we moved in and the fridge is at least 15 years old.

Part of my retirement benefits included a generous severance cheque, which provided the impetus to finally start on this project.  Apart from knowing that we would replace all appliances, we hadn't determined how far we'd go with rest of the reno.  Considerations included whether or not to remove the closet by the range, which tended to make the space feel more cramped, and to remove the bulkheads above the cabinets.  The implications of doing either meant drywall patching/matching to the old popcorn texture ceiling and patching the flooring.

Some photos showing where we started.  Enlisted my youngest daughter to help with the "first blows" of demolition.

Online goodfellow

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2020, 05:07:05 PM »
Good luck with that project Clay. It's a great learning experience ---- for both of you -- LOL.

My daughter and I re-modeled the master bath a few years ago. It was a great experience for both of us.

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2020, 05:13:24 PM »
The full room is about 22.5' x 9.5'.  A good friend of mine was chomping at the bit to help with the demo phase, and his help definitely sped the process.  The decision was made to remove the closet and the over-cabinet bulkheads in favour of 40" wall cabinets. 

One of the "joys" of renovation is the discovery of the unexpected.  The first (of several) in this particular adventure was that one of the closet walls was framed as part of a wall that ran the straight through to the front of the house and the two portions of the kitchen wall had been framed and install independently.  There turned out to be about a 3/8" alignment differential between the two.  As you'll see later, I minimized the transition by removing the stud (it was a cripple) and drywall to spread it over a longer area.  There's still a bow in the wall but that should be concealed by the cabinets and backsplash.  That's the theory, at least.

Offline slip knot

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2020, 05:16:00 PM »
Kitchen Reno, those words can be the scariest words a woman can say.  :lol_hitting:

It always amazing to see the transformation when completed. its just getting it done that hurts.

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2020, 05:23:14 PM »
Good luck with that project Clay. It's a great learning experience ---- for both of you -- LOL.

My daughter and I re-modeled the master bath a few years ago. It was a great experience for both of us.

Thanks, Ray.  She hasn't been overly involved due to her schedule, love life and camping but they'll all get their turns :-D  Still lots of work left to do.  Oddly enough, nobody was willing to accompany me into the crawlspace...

Kitchen Reno, those words can be the scariest words a woman can say.  :lol_hitting:

It always amazing to see the transformation when completed. its just getting it done that hurts.

True that!  I have a lot more progress photos to post yet but we're currently in the coming together stage where I almost feel like there might be hope.  Maybe :-D

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2020, 06:55:21 PM »
"It's gonna get worse before it gets better..."

Cabinets were built in place, with no backing, no glue and small finish nails.  The wall cabinets were removed intact but the base cabinets came out in pieces.  With the cabinets out of the way we had access to the wiring and plumbing.  And started removing drywall.  And more drywall.  And more drywall...way more than I had originall intended but it is what it is...

We also passed a QC check by one of my many supervisors.

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2020, 07:00:58 PM »
Did I mention more drywall removal? 

During the original renovations I removed the exterior stucco and paperfibre sheathing, replacing it with plywood sheathing and hardiplank...so I had already seen the inside of these exterior walls once.  Now I got a second look...

The original owners of the house decorated the kitchen with flowery wallpaper some time in the 70's.  We bought the house in '97 and I removed 99.99% of that wall paper within the first month.  This is (was) about the only remaining trace of it).

We also had a bit of a leak under the sink.  I had written it off to a leaky faucet and poor seal on the top.  It looks like some may have been leaking through the corroded drain downpipes.  One broke during removal, the other came apart easily in my hands.

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2020, 07:10:43 PM »
Round 2 in the unexpected challenges department...I was elected to investigate a questionable wire in the crawlspace.  Why is it always me?   :'(

Apart from discovering that the wire (which led from an outlet box we wanted to relocate) didn't actually go anywhere - it had been cut and capped, presumably by our electrician during the renos) I also found a bit of a lake down there.  Water was leaking from a questionable connection used to permanently install a portable dishwasher (again, by the original owners).

More on that issue later...

Offline pep

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2020, 08:34:00 PM »
Big job, and good excuse to eat out ..... As long as the water did not get into the wood, repair should go smoothly. (famous last words)

Yeah going in behind other is alway scary. The outlet to no where will that actually make  relocation easier ?

Helpers are aways good...

Pep
1776 ................... what happened!

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2020, 08:44:53 PM »
Big job, and good excuse to eat out ..... As long as the water did not get into the wood, repair should go smoothly. (famous last words)

Yeah going in behind other is alway scary. The outlet to no where will that actually make  relocation easier ?

Helpers are aways good...

Pep

Lesson number one:  Doing this in the summer makes the outdoor kitchen more practical.  The BBQ and patio are earning their keep this year!

The water did get into the wood, and there's some fungus/etc in there.  I'm going to give it all time to dry out then will assess the condition of it all later.

The wire to nowhere was a relief as the outlet had a line in from the top and a line out from the bottom (the mystery one).  Eliminating the wire gave us room to breath, as you'll see in upcoming photos!

Offline john k

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2020, 05:39:57 AM »
You are making progress.  Interesting how things like the wallpaper come and go so quickly.  Seeing that crawl space makes me all the more glad I have a full basement with full access to plumbing.   Even a relatively new house as yours has gone through changes,  mine was built in 1905, with electricity installed in 1948, has added to the adventure of our ongoing bedroom and bath renovation.  Good pics, print them off and keep them as a reminder of all the work and money spent.

Offline pep

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2020, 06:24:36 AM »
Outdoor kitchen, BBQ and patio, man I'm all for that, best meals... right there !!

Want to kill the mold, house hold bleach is your friend, will knock it down real fast. No need to soak the wood,  spray/misting it on. It could take a couple of times .........Wetting it too much, bleach will attract the wood.
The growth is on top of the wood. Do not want the bleach to soak down into or onto the surface of the wood.

You will really like a new kitchen ....... a great upgrade ...

Pep

Lesson number one:  Doing this in the summer makes the outdoor kitchen more practical.  The BBQ and patio are earning their keep this year!

The water did get into the wood, and there's some fungus/etc in there.  I'm going to give it all time to dry out then will assess the condition of it all later.

The wire to nowhere was a relief as the outlet had a line in from the top and a line out from the bottom (the mystery one).  Eliminating the wire gave us room to breath, as you'll see in upcoming photos!
[/quote]
1776 ................... what happened!

Offline Heiny57

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2020, 07:23:38 AM »
  :bravo_2:   Great thread
MAGA

If you can’t fix it with a hammer, it must be electrical.

Offline Lookin4_67GalaxieConv

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2020, 10:56:05 AM »
The original owners of the house decorated the kitchen with flowery wallpaper some time in the 70's.  We bought the house in '97 and I removed 99.99% of that wall paper within the first month.  This is (was) about the only remaining trace of it).

It's time for that wallpaper to make a comeback!   :)) :)) :))
boop/bop/beep

Offline DeadNutz

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2020, 01:01:51 PM »
Great story and pictures so far and keep them coming. Nothing will get my heart pounding like seeing the wife holding a tape measure while uttering those tragic words, "I've been thinking and have an idea." :c002:

Offline J.A.F.E.

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2020, 02:56:17 PM »

It's time for that wallpaper to make a comeback!   :)) :)) :))

No, it will never be that time.

<snip> ... Nothing will get my heart pounding like seeing the wife holding a tape measure while uttering those tragic words, "I've been thinking and have an idea." :c002:

Oddly in our house my wife usually just wants to buy stuff like furniture or the never ending army of accessories that go through the house. It's me that comes up with the big projects and I usually have to talk her into them because of the mess they leave behind. And drywall projects are the worst. It seems no matter how minor the project drywall dust gets all over the house and no amount of sheeting  and taping can contain it - and I am decent enough at drywall it usually doesn't require much sanding.

Der Bugmeister great project and I'm quite excited to watch the progress.
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Offline bmwrd0

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2020, 06:12:03 PM »
Yeah, its a fun thing when the wife says "I have an idea..." and holds either a paint brush or a tape measure.

But, as far as construction on this goes, its post WWII and should be easy. Try this on a Pre-WWI house, where nothing is standardized!

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2020, 08:30:09 PM »
Seeing that crawl space makes me all the more glad I have a full basement with full access to plumbing.

The basement was one of the features I had to compromise on back when we were doing the house search.  I sacrificed it in favour of a house with a fireplace and enough property to build a detached shop (which I did...all 900 sq ft of it).  This crawlspace is not much fun - the first section is entered through the addition's foundation and while I ensured the concrete was smoothed there isn't much clearance to do more than a belly crawl for 17 ft.  Then through the original crawl space access and you're under the house, where the concrete was just splattered around and never smoothed.  Damned hard on the knees.  A little more room for a slow, deliberate crawl on hands and knees but still...

Want to kill the mold, house hold bleach is your friend, will knock it down real fast. No need to soak the wood,  spray/misting it on. It could take a couple of times .........Wetting it too much, bleach will attract the wood.
The growth is on top of the wood. Do not want the bleach to soak down into or onto the surface of the wood.

You will really like a new kitchen ....... a great upgrade ...

I have a couple photos we'll be getting to in due course, and you'll see what's there.  I'll figure out a remediation in due course.  We're definitely looking forward to the end product in the kitchen.

Great story and pictures so far and keep them coming. Nothing will get my heart pounding like seeing the wife holding a tape measure while uttering those tragic words, "I've been thinking and have an idea." :c002:

Thanks!  I'm my own worst enemy...I come up with the ideas and she just says "Ok".  Sigh.  She would have been fine (but disappointed) if I had left the closet and bulkheads intact.  The reality is I enjoy the process and I know I'll enjoy having a kitchen that isn't stuck in the '70s!

And I whole heartedly agree with J.A.F.E. - it will NEVER be that wallpaper's time again...

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2020, 09:00:20 PM »
Once the destruction (arguably the best part of any project like this) was complete it was time to start setting things up to move forward.  The original counters had slim backsplashes - just arborite glued to the drywall with a plastic channel joint to keep water on the right side.  With the intent of using countertops with integral backsplashes, the counter outlets and switches needed to be moved upwards and out of the way.  We also had to add new power supply and outlets for the over the range microwave (just used the old range hood power) and built in dishwasher.

Additionally, the original electricians got lazy and ran wire around the wall top plates instead of drilling through.  The cabinet bulkheads allowed them to get away with that, but my decision to eliminate those bulkheads meant having to run the wires through the framing.  Of course, each outlet had wires exiting from the opposite directions.

The decision was made to employ junction boxes which will fall behind the cabinets.  Not ideal, but I'll cut the cabinet backing to provide access and comply with electrical code.  Although I could have managed the rewiring myself, I have a camera shy friend who had already offered his help...and who am I to refuse beer drinking companionship...er...help?




Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #19 on: July 24, 2020, 09:05:43 PM »
A few more photos showing the extent of drywall removed, and you might catch a glimpse of those wires taking shortcuts at the top of the wall.

The symbol on the back of the drywall was to commemorate the province of British Columbia's 100th anniversary (1871-1971) making the drywall and period of house construction pretty easy to date.  My drywaller had never seen it before.

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #20 on: July 24, 2020, 09:15:32 PM »
With the wiring cleaned up, I was able to start closing things up with vapor barrier and drywall.  My hands were thankful to be done with the old fibreglass insulation and the associated itching.  Ugh. 

At this point I hadn't decided how I was going to handle the ceiling, but I started hanging the drywall in the meantime.  I had been trying to get a drywall/plaster guy to have a look and quote either matching to the existing ceiling (spray on popcorn texture that had been painted and couldn't be scraped) or troweling a smooth surface.  The first drywaller I contacted sounded super positive on the phone (Yeah, I'll come by tomorrow, I'm available to do it over the weekend, etc...) then turned out to be an unreliable no-show.  I was able to contact the guy who did the house for me during our renovations...and he to squeeze me in (cash talks!) right away.  He's a busy guy with a great reputation so I definitely appreciated his flexibility. 

He introduced the third option - put new board over the existing ceiling.  Price would be comparable (or less) and the end result would be good.  So that was the route we took.

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #21 on: July 24, 2020, 09:17:42 PM »
The advantages of getting professionals in at the right time can't be overstated.  Sure, I could have done the drywall, taping and mudding...but they did it in a fraction of the time and less mess than if I had done it.

I hate sanding joints.

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #22 on: July 24, 2020, 09:23:16 PM »
I couldn't do anything while the drywallers were doing their thing, so the best thing for us to do was head to the beach.  Loaded the family up and went to Long Beach (Vancouver Island, not Cali) for three glorious nights.  The beaches there are incredible, and when the girls were younger we tried to get up there for a few days each year.  This could very well be the last time we're all able to go as a family unit as the girls are at that age where their lives become busy on their own.

One of our traditions is the sand castle, and this year was no exception.  Build it big and watch the tide come in and reclaim the sand.

It was easy to relax knowing the drywall was being taken care of for me!  We returned home to finished drywall with primer over the joints.  It was onward ho to painting for me.

Offline J.A.F.E.

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #23 on: July 24, 2020, 09:24:16 PM »
<snip> ...  This crawlspace is not much fun - the first section is entered through the addition's foundation and while I ensured the concrete was smoothed there isn't much clearance to do more than a belly crawl for 17 ft.  Then through the original crawl space access and you're under the house, where the concrete was just splattered around and never smoothed.  Damned hard on the knees.  A little more room for a slow, deliberate crawl on hands and knees but still...


Maybe you could rig up a sort of all terrain creeper shouldn't be too hard and you are handy enough. The pix are to give you an idea first pic is a Whiteside unit and Whiteside can be quite pricey as can the Snappy in the second pic if you wanted to just buy an all terrain creeper.
People who confuse etymology and entomology bug me in ways I can’t put into words.

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #24 on: July 24, 2020, 09:29:09 PM »
<snip> ...  This crawlspace is not much fun - the first section is entered through the addition's foundation and while I ensured the concrete was smoothed there isn't much clearance to do more than a belly crawl for 17 ft.  Then through the original crawl space access and you're under the house, where the concrete was just splattered around and never smoothed.  Damned hard on the knees.  A little more room for a slow, deliberate crawl on hands and knees but still...


Maybe you could rig up a sort of all terrain creeper shouldn't be too hard and you are handy enough. The pix are to give you an idea first pic is a Whiteside unit and Whiteside can be quite pricey as can the Snappy in the second pic if you wanted to just buy an all terrain creeper.

I actually considered that during the big renovations.  The ground concrete is just too rough for small or hard wheels, so I would have had to lay out plank runways to be able to move relatively easily.  Given how seldom I need to go down there, I decided not to bother.  (I probably haven't been down there in 6 or 7 years at least).

I also thought about setting up a trap door access at the far end...which is where the water shut off is of course!  I might still do that, although I just turn the water off at the utility box by the road when needed.

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #25 on: July 24, 2020, 10:05:47 PM »
Meanwhile, behind the scenes...

Since we had to have access to things like food and dishes, we setup shop in the adjoining family room.  The tall white shelves will eventually be the new pantry in the kitchen but for now, they work great as expanded storage.  The bathroom sink is our water source and dishwashing basin for now.  We won't miss this, but it will help us appreciate the finished kitchen all the more!

Bonus photo...it's amazing the crap that gets down the sink and clogs the p-trap.

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #26 on: July 24, 2020, 10:34:46 PM »
We sort of dove in the deep end when this project started.  After spending a few days appliance shopping, comparing prices and stores we made our final choices and setup delivery for July 16th.  Perhaps a bit optimistic as far as reno progress goes.  Our original plan (pre-Covid) had been to get the appliances and use them in the old kitchen until later in the year.  We had a cruise booked for October and I didn't want to start the kitchen reno until after that.  No surprise, the cruise was cancelled so we decided to move kitchen renos to the left.

I could write a whole diatribe on appliance shopping and pricing, but I'll spare y'all unless there's a demand for it.  We learned a lot, though.  The biggest things we learned were that ALL the stores were within $5 in their prices on every appliance. Everybody had the same specials/sale prices on the same things, and the majority of stores stocked the same stuff.  Home Depot has the best price meet/beat as far as I could tell (beat competitor pricing by 10%), and Costco's prices were generally ONE CENT(!) cheaper than Home Depot.

We knew we'd be using Ikea cabinets, and I had already spent some time laying out our kitchen and cabinet plan in their online planning tool.  With the appliances ordered, it was time for a trip to Ikea to check out their cabinet systems in person and see what finishing ideas we might want to employ.  As we live on an island with no Ikea this meant spending a day taking a ferry to the mainland (about a 2 hour crossing plus the time spent waiting, loading, unloading) and a 45 minute drive on either end.

Once in Ikea, we did find the types of ideas we were after.  We also, unexpectedly, found we were able to sit down with one of their kitchen planners (we thought you needed to make an appointment weeks in advance), who led us through more design decisions and set us up with a complete component list to get what we were after.  This is where it gets stupid.  This trip was supposed to be a recce, and we weren't going to make any final decisions until later then buy what we needed online and pickup at a nearby distribution centre (no ferry involved for that one.  But...it turns out Ikea has "in store stock", "warehouse stock" and "distribution centre stock"...and they don't mingle.  The distribution centre only had about 9 of 180 items available, and you can't order/pay in store unless the items are in stock.  The store doesn't carry anything but the cabinet handles.  The warehouse (about a 5 minute drive from this particular store) had everything but 3 pieces, but they don't ship so if we wanted them we had to pick up. 

So...we had our cabinet plan, our shopping list...and we were there.  So pulled the trigger on them, and filled the truck up with kitchen.  Suspension sank almost 5".  Completely unprepared, I only had 2 small tarps (lots of scattered downpours of course), 1 tiedown strap (wife had helpfully moved the ones I left in the truck into the house) and a long piece of rope. 

We left the house about 8 a.m. and got home just before midnight.  Then unloaded...

This all happened before the first hammer blow to drywall occurred.

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #27 on: July 24, 2020, 10:37:23 PM »
Now that we had our cabinets filling the living room, appliances on the way, and my destructive friend asking when we (he and I) were starting demo, there was no reason not to start right away...weeks before intended lol.

In the meantime the stacked Ikea boxes created comfortable resting spots for my primary supervisors.

Offline Lookin4_67GalaxieConv

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2020, 08:15:58 AM »
Now that we had our cabinets filling the living room, appliances on the way, and my destructive friend asking when we (he and I) were starting demo, there was no reason not to start right away...weeks before intended lol.

In the meantime the stacked Ikea boxes created comfortable resting spots for my primary supervisors.

Better make sure those supervisors are satisfied or you'll hear about it. Usually in the wee hours of the morning is when ours makes her displeasure known.   :lol_hitting:
boop/bop/beep

Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2020, 02:15:05 PM »
Apparently these supervisors are impossible to keep satisfied  :))

I'm still playing catchup on the progress photos...although this set deals with that nasty crawlspace leak, today's activities involves getting the first wall cabinets up and in position.  If anyone has experience installing Ikea style cabinets I'm very receptive to tips!

The previous owners setup a portable dishwasher at the end of the original counter.  Power was from a wall outlet on the counter but they plumbed up a hot water line and drain line.  The drain line was the clear flexible tube style, clamped to the factory drain hose and fed into a Y inlet using some reducers and what not.  No P trap or anything.  Our new dishwasher is a builtin which will be installed properly - under counter power connection, water supply from the sink supply and drain through the sink drain.

To remove this installation, I had to cut and cap the copper hot water supply in the crawlspace, remove the Y from the ABS drainline and replace with a straight through section.

As I was getting setup in the crawlspace I had a look around to see if there was anything else I needed to be aware of, and discovered I wasn't alone under there.  Not the rat, squirrel, raccoon, cat or other critters I would have expected though...a frog!  It was sitting there about 8' away just watching me with amusement.

Just what I needed...another supervisor.


Offline Der Bugmeister

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Re: Kitchen Reno - The Full Monte
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2020, 02:25:04 PM »
Once I turned my attention to the job at hand, I was shocked by what I found.  The plastic drain hose had a large hole in it so the dishwasher was pretty much just emptying itself into the crawlspace.  (Lesson learned...don't avoid crawlspace inspections for so long.)  Holes this size are likely cause by rodents gnawing away at the hose, possibly drawn to it by the sound, warmth or an existing small leak.

The wood is saturated, and there's a fungal growth or two.  We're just hitting some of the hottest weather of the summer so I'll let it dry out for a couple weeks before going back under to assess the condition of things.

Replacing the ABS section went smoothly.  Capping the copper line didn't.  I wasn't able to drain the water from the pipe sufficiently to allow a reliable solder joint.  I opted to use a SharkBite fitting instead.  Easy and effective.