Author Topic: HVAC product question  (Read 4916 times)

Offline pep

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HVAC product question
« on: May 19, 2019, 08:04:16 PM »
Time to start looking I think. Currently have Train XR13, installed 2006. The limited time I spent in this field, the one thing I took away was Train was a train. This unit has run flawlessly, last year needed a couple of lbs of r22.

This years again, tech suggest I start to think/look into a new unit,  coil or evaporator possibly beginning to leak. 

Air at the duck today 80* that is not cooling, I'll wait a week and call em out again. Cause if it has  that much coolant again that a sizable leak ?


However the Company has switched brands, now offering Carrier. I would like to get a read on the two.   They will order the Train equipment if I want

The current unit has a lifetime parts and labor, question what's the life time am I there?

 I'm not the type of person to hound some company to the last clocked minute to service the unit. Comes down to pay me now or pay me later, and actually is to much trouble, the furnish I have will keep.


That's a snap shot of the situation at hand, what say you?

Pep
1776 ................... what happened!

Online goodfellow

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2019, 08:12:27 PM »
Unfortunately our resident expert Bonneyman is visiting and traveling up/down the east coast this week, so hopefully he can check in with some insight on your problem.

Offline Matt_T

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2019, 11:05:27 PM »
The current unit has a lifetime parts and labor, question what's the life time am I there?

If the unit is covered by lifetime warranty why wasn't it fixed last year? Shooting in a couple pounds of freon is a band-aid not a warranty repair. I'm guessing this "lifetime warranty" is something the, no longer a Trane, dealer dreamed up and has nothing to do with Trane. And probably tied to an annual maintenance contract?

Regards how long is a "lifetime"?. 10 year warrantys aren't unusual for HVAC equipment so a lifetime should be a good bit longer than that IMO.

Offline coolmercury

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2019, 07:31:54 AM »
My Trane units (3) were still going after 30 years when I sold the house.  Only put fans in two of them in all that time.

Offline fatfillup

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2019, 08:14:48 AM »
13 years doesn't sound like a lot of time but your unit works harder then mine.  I would think 20 years would be minimum service life but i may be living in the past

Curious as what your lifetime warranty includes

Offline bmwrd0

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2019, 10:00:03 AM »
Carrier is good stuff. No complaints about the brand from when I was in the field.

And a Trane should last over 13 years. You have a leak in the system that needs to be fixed, not put in a whole new unit. With the humidity down there, I would guess a new outdoor coil, as I saw many that had rusted away in the wet Bay Area. But, I am not sure about checking a home type system as I did commercial. I am guessing you have a split system, I mainly worked on package units. Let B-man answer that. R22 is getting expensive, but a properly working system should not lose that much gas.

Offline pep

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2019, 07:42:04 AM »
Thanks for the info, confirmed my thoughts. Found out more about the warranty, comes down to this.

When the units repair cost are higher than the unit replacement cost, life time is up. That I found was a good way to explain it. The company is solid so not concerned, now having a better understanding.

I think it is leaking also, and they are coming again today. I will keep after them unit I see (their spec) 20* difference in the output, and out side temp. I'd be good with 19  ;D

@ Matt_T
I would sum up that question this way to be fair, like an oil leak it is not always obvious.

@ Phil
    All parts and labor, r22 & filter, consumables. Gets inspected twice a year. They did try to hose me for a blower cleaning last year 200 + 

That did not happen, can clean crap out with the best of them LOL. It goes without saying it is cleaner then what I would have had. A vacuuming alone would not have done a complete job.

Again all thank you,

Pep

1776 ................... what happened!

Offline slip knot

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2019, 05:38:50 PM »
I would hold onto the R22 units as long as you can. We switched out all the units at work for more efficient 410a? units. they aren't holding up too well. the AC tech tells me the coils are problematic. he's done a bit of warranty work on these new units. he's not real happy with them.

Offline pep

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2019, 08:58:15 PM »
They got the unit fixed, and i learned more about warranty, and yes slip knot, I will be keeping it as long as it will last, or no parts to be found. :-\

r22: 19* - 22* air temp difference, of air entering the air handler, and out of the evaporator into the duct. I think it is known as v1 & v2 reading, probed thru a hole in each section.

The new I'll call it r10: ... 10* difference .

Second: life time part & labor, warranty .... not any more. Example, if I were to change the compressor & coil, new unit 10 year warranty.

Keeping the furnish, change the evaporator, evaporator will have a 10year warranty, furnish still covered by life time warranty.

Got lucky buying in 2006
1776 ................... what happened!

Offline bonneyman

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2019, 08:12:18 PM »
Sorry for the slow response. Being away for a week has let ALOT of small chores build up.

A Trane unit properly installed should give you 20+ years. No ifs, ands. or butts. So, somewhere a part is failing. If you've lost freon two years in a row, well they need to find the leak. "Time to start looking at a new unit" - yeah, that's "I'm a lazy technician and don't want to work the job, plus I get a commission on every new unit I sell". Were there systems that had leaks that I couldn't find. Sure. But I'd say 90%+ I'd find the leak but the customer didn't want to pay for the repair. That's a big outlay of cash money TODAY - would much rather credit card it and pay it off over years.

Stick with your R22 unit. The powers that be are planning on banning R410a with 5-6 years, forcing everybody to switch freons AGAIN. If you keep the R22 you'll only have to convert once, rather than twice by doing R410a and then R-32.

They "coincidentally" no longer carry Trane, but Carrier. Translation: Trane is an expensive unit. Carrier is much cheaper. Therefore, there's more profit in selling Carrier, because you can bet your bottom dollar the price they're charging for installation ain't gonna come down. Also, it might be they've switched brands because they've been having problems like yours with alot of customers, and those customers have griped to the manufacturer. Trane is tightening the screws on the companies warranty claims, and so they've decided to switch.

But honestly, if the units leaking, that's why the performance is suffering. They need to find the leak and fix it. Remember too that when refrigerant leaks it's not only losing freon but also oil (entrained in the freon as a vapor). When they top the charge off they're putting in virgin freon. No oil. Thus over time an unrepaired leak will allow the system to lose enough oil to seize the compressor, which will probably make you change the system.

They should drain the freon, cut and seal the system into 3 parts (condensing unit, evaporator coil, and the lineset between). Pressurize with dry nitrogen to 400 PSI, leave it for a few days. Slap a gauge onto each section, see which one has lost pressure. Then they can narrow down the spot or component that's bad. Alot of work, I used to charge $400 to do that. But many companies don't want to piddle around with small change repairs, instead opting for the big buck installs.

Online goodfellow

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2019, 08:26:19 PM »
Good job pep -- glad they got you squared away. Last years I took B-man's counsel and cleaned the evaporator and condenser coils per his advice. I also changed the outside unit run/start capacitor, and cleaned the contactor with circuit board cleaner. Just this week I vacuumed and cleaned out the squirrel cage fan in the air handler. Had I called the AC company to service the unit they would have gouged me again -- as in previous years.

....every time they came to do the service they recommend a new run/start cap ($250) and contactor ($300) --incl. parts/labor. I got the exact same parts on ebay for less than $50, and kept the older parts as emergency spares.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 08:28:25 PM by goodfellow »

Offline bmwrd0

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2019, 11:29:28 PM »
Learning to work on a unit really isn't different than learning to work on your rod, Pep. Take the B-mans advice and Goodfellows too!

Offline Lookin4_67GalaxieConv

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2019, 11:39:38 PM »
I have a Lennox system from 2005 and the blower motor just went out.  I was given two choices, have the motor replaced for $1,200, or buy a new system installed for $3,200-3,400.  I ended up having two people look at it and those were the estimates.  Called up a third party to ask his advice, he had done work on my other house, but I hadn't had him over because I thought it was out of his service range.  He told me the Lennox was a high dollar system and well worth fixing, so I had him replace the motor for $1,100.  He said it should last another 10-15 years. Hope that was the right way to go.

George, based on your response to Pep, that may have been the way to go?
« Last Edit: May 24, 2019, 11:47:41 PM by Lookin4_67GalaxieConv »
boop/bop/beep

Offline bonneyman

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2019, 11:56:39 PM »
I know Lennox is a top tier maker, but haven't worked on all that many of them. (Maybe that's a good sign?)

My feeling is - if the repair is 50% or less than a new unit - repair it. Typically that means that - so long as the compressor is good - it's usually a good bet to repair things. (Though, I haven't kept up on how much evap coils cost. A failure there could be above my self-imposed 50% limit). 
I don't know offhand if your Lennox unit has an ECM-type motor in it. For $1,100, I'm assuming it is. And they aren't cheap. So, that price is probably in the ball park.

Offline pep

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Re: HVAC product question
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2019, 06:42:40 AM »
Learning to work on a unit really isn't different than learning to work on your rod, Pep. Take the B-mans advice and Goodfellows too!

I totally agree with that, remove & cleaned the air handler blower last year. The condenser is cleaned every spring. Took a look at the evaporator. I know no one has cleaned or even looked at it since install. First look it looks new. Going to have a second look the under side or primary side of the coil, where the blower air enters.

Yes the system assembles look robust, and should last longer then 13 years.
1776 ................... what happened!