Alternative AC refrigerant experiment --

[john k]

Glad it is working,  am in the same boat with older vehicles, or will be if I ever get some of them on the road again.  Since propane is very combustible,  wonder if any tests have been done with the vehicle in a front end crash?  Boom or fizzle?   Was thinking of this when before I quit work, we were being introduced to the new R-1234a stuff, and the instructor mentioned it was ((slightly)) combustible. 

[goodfellow]

Glad it is working,  am in the same boat with older vehicles, or will be if I ever get some of them on the road again.  Since propane is very combustible,  wonder if any tests have been done with the vehicle in a front end crash?  Boom or fizzle?   Was thinking of this when before I quit work, we were being introduced to the new R-1234a stuff, and the instructor mentioned it was ((slightly)) combustible. 

Bonneyman is our AC expert and a wealth of info on the properties of the various refrigerant gases in use. From my own limited research I've found that they are all combustible to a certain extent. I tested 152a by spraying it directly into the flame of a burning propane torch. It did nut flare or blow up like most aerosol propellants do. This stuff is used/sold as an alternative source for compressed air to clean keyboards and circuits -- hence I doubt it would be extremely flammable like propane or butane.

[bonneyman]

Thanks GF for the kind words. I've been around the block a few times - sad part is I'm starting to look it! 

The other "new" gas possibility for auto A/C is R-32. It, too, is slightly flammable - which has kept it out of the American market for refrigerant use in pure form. Europe is using it, and early indications are promising. But the flammability rules preclude its use here - which is why the manufacturers and enviros are pressuring the EPA to change their rules a little to permit a "slightly" flammable gas.

Personally, I am leary of anything flammable in an AC. In the old old days ammonia was the main refrigerant, and one of the main reasons it was replaced (with chlorinated hydrocarbons) was because of safety - as it was flammable!  So now we're coming full circle and pushing for a flammable (albeit slightly) gas?
People have said, "It's flammable - so what? There's gasoline in the car, and it's flammable!". Well, with the fuel it's outside of the passenger compartment. With AC, part of the system (i.e the evaporator) is INSIDE the passenger compartment. In a crash a leak in that coil could let flammable freon escape into the area where the people are. Not so sure the phrase "slightly flammable" is gonna be OK with people in that scenario.

[gtermini]

My take is there are so many other dangers on the road, a half pound of something flammable in your rig is a non issue. There are thousands of class 7 and 8 trucks running around on compressed natural gas or propane. I would expect one of these to be a much higher risk in a wreck than a small ac system. Life is full of risks, and I try not to worry too much about most of them.

Greyson

[TexasT]

This is the stuff I am trying out. I'm using it in my 1987 Regal to replace the r12. Just received three more cans.

I plan to use the 152a in our 1994 Suburban when I get that far. I'm goofing with the trans at this time and replacing the ball joints and calipers on the front end. Some of the clutches weren't in very good shape.

[goodfellow]

This is the stuff I am trying out. I'm using it in my 1987 Regal to replace the r12. Just received three more cans.

I plan to use the 152a in our 1994 Suburban when I get that far. I'm goofing with the trans at this time and replacing the ball joints and calipers on the front end. Some of the clutches weren't in very good shape.

What gas compound are they showing on the can label? For example 152a is Difluoroethane

[mikef2316]

The reason ammonia is not used in automotive A/C:  From https://www.osha.gov/SLTC/etools/ammonia_refrigeration/ammonia/index.html


Health Effects

...

Lungs

In the lungs, liquid anhydrous ammonia causes destruction of delicate respiratory tissue.
Exposure to ammonia vapor may cause:

    Convulsive coughing.
    Difficult or painful breathing.
    Pulmonary congestion.
    Death.

...

Occasionally you read about ammonia leaks in refrigerated warehouses or hockey arenas and the death of a person or two.  Plenty of examples if you google it.

[bonneyman]

Oh, ammonia has some definite nasty side-effects, no doubt about it. And for cars I don't think it's a viable option.

But for stationary refrigeration - especially large capacity - I think its advantages outweigh the drawbacks. It would take good design and alot of operational diligence, but - if we can deal with nuclear power and corrosive acids and explosives - I think we could build and maintain ammonia plants.

[coolmercury]

Is it true that the newest refrigerant in some Ram pickups costs big $ an ounce??

[bonneyman]

Don't know about auto A/C gases, but with residential freons the older ones (or to-be-banned ones) are going stratospheric!

R-410a is not too bad, but R-22 is going for anywhere from $100-$300 a pound, depending on your dealer. Which is outrageous!

[slip knot]

so what is R12 going for now? I ran across a couple of cans in the back of the shop.

[Matt_T]

Is it true that the newest refrigerant in some Ram pickups costs big $ an ounce??

Most manufacturers are transitioning to R1234yf. It's about $70 a pound, vs $5 a pound for R134a, which could easily be $10 an ounce or more with shop mark up.

R-22 is going for anywhere from $100-$300 a pound

Looks to be running around $15 a pound online.

[bonneyman]

Is it true that the newest refrigerant in some Ram pickups costs big $ an ounce??

Most manufacturers are transitioning to R1234yf. It's about $70 a pound, vs $5 a pound for R134a, which could easily be $10 an ounce or more with shop mark up.

R-22 is going for anywhere from $100-$300 a pound

Looks to be running around $15 a pound online.

Sorry, I misspoke. Dealers (as in service companies) are charging $100 or more a pound retail. Wholesale for me now is $500 for 30 pounds (i.e. about $17 a pound).

Considering R-22 is made from natural gas and sea water it shouldn't be that expensive.

[Matt_T]

Sorry, I misspoke. Dealers (as in service companies) are charging $100 or more a pound retail. Wholesale for me now is $500 for 30 pounds (i.e. about $17 a pound).

Considering R-22 is made from natural gas and sea water it shouldn't be that expensive.

That or I misread I've heard the interlink rumors about very high R22 costs at retail. Might be some compliance issues I'm unaware of but that kind of mark up seems excessive.

Regards the wholesale price I'm really not surprised R22 is running ~3x the price of R134A and R410A. Declining volume and the threatened phaseout are going to drive the cost up.