Author Topic: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?  (Read 18850 times)

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2018, 09:46:35 AM »
Here's some power steering fluid SDS's. The ingredients reveal some peculiarities.

Quaker State - https://www.conncoll.edu/media/website-media/offices/ehs/envhealthdocs/power_steering_fluid.pdf
STP - http://www.stp.com/sites/default/files/STP%20Power%20Steering%20Fluid%20%26%20Stop%20Leak%20%282015-06%29.pdf
Lucas (doesn't tell you much) - https://lucasoil.com/pdf/SDS_Lucas-Power-Steering-Fluid.pdf
Masters (not much here) - http://apauto.com/dnld/p15d33aea31686b453d/Master%20Power%20Steering%20Fluid.pdf
Chevron (again pretty vague) - https://cglapps.chevron.com/sdspds/SDSDetailPage.aspx?docDataId=426266&docFormat=PDF
AMSOIL synthetic - https://www.amsoil.com/msds/psf.pdf
Prestone - http://s7d9.scene7.com/is/content/GenuinePartsCompany/1800580pdf?$PDF$

From the one's that actually list the name and CAS numbers I can deduce that the base oil components are quite similar to that of ATF. I did find one along the way that had 3% of DMSO - can't figure why they'd put a penetrant in steering fluid. Though the similarity of base oils is perfectly understandable. Both transmissions and power steering units are under high pressure and have tight tolerances, so, a stable and high lubricity component is desirable. Though trannies have high torque forces put on them that are not present with steering units, so a slight differing of ingredients is warranted.

I can't see any strong reason for PSF to be better than ATF in JAFE juice, but I've never actually used that mixture myself, so, all I have is my opinion.

Online goodfellow

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2018, 10:00:13 AM »
As noted before, J.A.F.E.s mix of acetone/ATF and many other acetone/oil mixes have been talked and written about for decades, but it was this single article that caused a huge ripple in the force because it was posted on the net and we had instant access to many car/truck/machinery/mechanical forums to spur on the discussion. The results were quoted and discussed ad nauseam in car restoration and machining venues, and it eventually took on a life of its own.

I can't say whether one is better than the other because I use Kroil religiously myself, and have never had any luck with acetone/oil mixes (any of them), but to merely point out that in this particular article, the author screwed up and actually used Acetone/PSF instead of Acetone/ATF. The only difference between the two that I can see is that the Acetone/PSF mix stays homogenized longer than the ATF mix. Whether it's better or not I have no clue.

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2018, 12:01:06 PM »
Well, sometimes mistakes in science end up creating something unexpected.
Charles Goodyear accidentally spilled a rubber/sulfur compound he was working with on a hot stove. The rubber got harder and stronger. By accident he discovered vulcanization.
Teflon was discovered accidentally by Dr. Roy Plunkett who was testing different halogenated hydrocarbons. They had a bunch of compressed gas cylinders full of test gases, and when they came back the next morning they discovered one cylinder measured 0 psi. But when the weighed it on a scale, it was the same as the rest of the cylinders. When they opened up the cylinder, a fine white powder poured out. The gas has somehow spontaneously polymerized, forming a crude plastic that became known as Teflon.
Gunpowder was discovered by the ancient Chinese while trying to make an elixer that would give eternal life! They mixed honey, sulfur, and potassium nitrate in a pot while slowly heating it. Once all the water evaporated, the mixture caught fire, and burned down the hut they were working in.

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #18 on: January 01, 2019, 11:10:22 AM »
Hey guys, while reading through the article on gun cleaners I came across this quote (bold words are mine).

"Also, Ed's Red is very penetrative and makes a superior penetrating oil for loosening rusted parts.  In fact in some testing by a machinist's magazine a couple of years ago it beat all the commercial products by a wide margin. A dedicated Ed's Red penetrating solution can be made by just using a 50-50 mix of ATF and acetone."

Trying to figure out when the originator Ed Harris came up with his concoction and thus his statement about the acetone/ATF. Obviously (as goodfellow has said) the mixture goes way back.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2019, 11:22:53 AM by bonneyman »

Online goodfellow

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #19 on: January 01, 2019, 11:24:26 AM »
From what I can glean within the gun community, Ed's Red was first labeled as such right after WWII -- and was used as a cheap alternative to Hoppe's and Ballistol as a bore cleaner and lube. It makes sense since these concoctions were very popular with GIs during the war and they often had to improvise to get the jobs done. The various formulas for these mixes were probably brought into WWII military services from draftees that came from industry; where they had existed for decades within the various mechanical trades across the country. Each trade and or factory (and even specific geographic locations) had variations on the basic mixtures and blends. 

Offline J.A.F.E.

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #20 on: January 01, 2019, 12:34:10 PM »
Could well be about WWII. GM introduced the Hydra-matic about 1940 and it is was pretty much a modern automatic including the use of ATF. They probably started showing up in numbers after civilian production resumed.
People who confuse etymology and entomology bug me in ways I can’t put into words.

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #21 on: January 03, 2019, 11:18:04 AM »
Apparently the Ed's Red was a modernization of something called Hatcher's Arsenal Cleaning Formula #18. Since that formula probably used sperm oil (which was phased out a little after WW2), then a post-war date for Ed's red seems plausible. Update: Hatcher attributes this formula to one Dr. W.G. Hudson, a rifle experimenter from the early 1900's.

Sorry that this discussion has sort of drifted toward gun stuff instead of machinery. But that's where the investigation led.

Here's a link to a copy of Hatcher's Notebook, first printing 1947. Obviously the knowledge expressed herein are tricks and techniques garnered from many sources over many years earlier by a military professional.

https://www.tngun.com/hatchers-notebook/
« Last Edit: June 09, 2019, 04:09:52 PM by bonneyman »

Online goodfellow

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #22 on: January 03, 2019, 12:08:21 PM »
If you think about it -- guys in WWII had to find many remedies for not only cleaning rifles, but also large bore guns on tanks and artillery. They had to invent cleaning solutions on the fly - because the supply lines were often cut and/or unavailable. Where did they turn to -- the motor pool and/or maintenance depot that was stocked with bulk industrial solvents. They used their industry knowledge to mix these solvents into useful cleaners and lubricants.

Offline lauver

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #23 on: January 17, 2019, 11:11:13 AM »
Gang,

You're getting all technical here and missing the point.

JAFE Juice works because it was invented by the little green guy using alien technologies.   :-\
« Last Edit: January 17, 2019, 11:14:50 AM by lauver »
When my wife leaves me, my dog dies, and they repossess my home, I'll still have my tools.

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #24 on: March 04, 2019, 09:34:09 AM »
Gang,

You're getting all technical here and missing the point.

JAFE Juice works because it was invented by the little green guy using alien technologies.   :-\

That's right - blame it on the alien!   :D

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2019, 10:13:02 AM »
Well, our little educational thread has garnered over 1,000 views. guess people are finding the information useful. I'm glad. :-*

Online goodfellow

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2019, 10:30:26 AM »
Just my $.02 for those that are interested -- my Family's version of Ed's Red (Grandpa and Dad cleaned all their firearms with this stuff).

NOTE -- If you use Turpentine instead of Mineral Spirits, then don't throw the rags into a pile, or into a trash can. In this mix, Turpentine has many of the same properties as plain boiled linseed oil  -- on a used rag it can flash very quickly and cause a fire. Best to set it in a tin coffee can outside (or metal bucket) and wait for the stuff to evaporate.

1 part non-synthetic ATF
1 part Acetone
1 part Mineral Spirits (or Turpentine) (see note above on disposal)
1 part Marvel Mystery Oil (or Kerosene) -- (or in a pinch Diesel Fuel)
« Last Edit: June 04, 2019, 11:06:48 AM by goodfellow »

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #27 on: June 09, 2019, 12:10:45 PM »
Just my $.02 for those that are interested -- my Family's version of Ed's Red (Grandpa and Dad cleaned all their firearms with this stuff).

NOTE -- If you use Turpentine instead of Mineral Spirits, then don't throw the rags into a pile, or into a trash can. In this mix, Turpentine has many of the same properties as plain boiled linseed oil  -- on a used rag it can flash very quickly and cause a fire. Best to set it in a tin coffee can outside (or metal bucket) and wait for the stuff to evaporate.

1 part non-synthetic ATF
1 part Acetone
1 part Mineral Spirits (or Turpentine) (see note above on disposal)
1 part Marvel Mystery Oil (or Kerosene) -- (or in a pinch Diesel Fuel)

Cool! Nice to have an alternative.

Wonder why the non-synthetic ATF? Besides, I thought all new ATF's were synthetic - just to be able to take the stresses of modern automatics.

Online goodfellow

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #28 on: June 09, 2019, 01:04:34 PM »
Non synthetic ATF has much better solvent properties -- in those days it was a necessary evil to work properly at high temps. Hence it didn't protect as well as modern synthetics because of that solvent content. Synthetics don't have much value as a solvent, so as a cleaner they aren't very efficient.


Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2019, 10:35:05 AM »
Non synthetic ATF has much better solvent properties -- in those days it was a necessary evil to work properly at high temps. Hence it didn't protect as well as modern synthetics because of that solvent content. Synthetics don't have much value as a solvent, so as a cleaner they aren't very efficient.

Interesting. I always thought synthetic oils were good solvents.
Any way to tell if your ATF is natural or synthetic? Or are they all synthetic now?

And I know turpentine was originally a distillation of tree sap (mostly pine). But how do they make "synthetic" turpentine? I think the turp we sold at Ace was real, but then again I'm not so sure now.
« Last Edit: September 08, 2019, 10:43:42 AM by bonneyman »