So I Kinda Hate to Admit it But...

[J.A.F.E.]

I am starting this confession but I hope others will follow suit and admit what you've changed your mind about. Feel free to comment on my admission as well.

So I kinda hate to admit it but I have come around to believe Robertson also known as a Scrulox screw (ANSI Type III Square Center) really is better than Phillips drive, at least for power driving. I really clung to my guns about liking Phillips better but yesterday I was power driving a pile of Phillips screws into a double layer of 3/4 plywood (I know it really is 23/32 or in this case 46/32 [or 23/16 for the really pedantic]) and the screws kept camming out and each time stripping the bit a little more so each screw was worse than the one before. Robertson went in cleanly. Not my first dance to this waltz but I finally have to admit reality.

I believe I will start buying Robertson drive from here forward for wood and drywall screws.

[hickory n Steel]

I came to this conclusion the first time I encountered a Robertson screw, I've had too many issues with proper fitting Phillips drivers.
I figure it would he easier to make a proper fitting robertson and It seems like fewer sizes could be utilized since the square takes up less of the screws head.


I will say that I bought a box of screws last year that were unidrive Phillips and they did seem much better than standard Phillips,  not as good as Robertson.
Maybe even JIS would he better than standard Phillips?

[goodfellow]

Have to agree with the alien. Heck, even the Phillips cousins such as PoziDriv and JIS are much better than "Plain Jane" standard.

[strik9]

Next comes embracing metric system measures and shunning that obsolete English crap.

Welcome to the 20th century!

The Canadians did get square drive right.

[gtermini]

I've given up completely on phillips/robertsons/pozidrive. I will only buy wood screws in T25 torx now. Torx was designed from the get go to be power driven, whereas the cross drive bits were modified for powered installation. Plus my new dewalt impact snaps off apex phillips bits at midpoint on the cross when driving large screws.

[J.A.F.E.]

Torx I like but haven't seen wood screws with the drive but then I buy that stuff in the two worst possible sources one orange and one blue.

Next comes embracing metric system measures and shunning that obsolete English crap.

Welcome to the 20th century!

The Canadians did get square drive right.

No that whacky French measuring system was an arbitrary system dreamed up in 1795 and is so 18th century. The English system may be older but it makes more sense in most ways. It's fractions most people have trouble with and decimals work just as well which is what the WFMS uses anyway.

[hickory n Steel]

Torx I like but haven't seen wood screws with the drive but then I buy that stuff in the two worst possible sources one orange and one blue.

Next comes embracing metric system measures and shunning that obsolete English crap.

Welcome to the 20th century!

The Canadians did get square drive right.

No that whacky French measuring system was an arbitrary system dreamed up in 1795 and is so 18th century. The English system may be older but it makes more sense in most ways. It's fractions most people have trouble with and decimals work just as well which is what the WFMS uses anyway.

The way I see it,  it takes fewer inches to equal 1 foot so that's less counting and 12 inches is a nice even number.
How much is 1 meter anyways about 3 something feet right ? How about an even 3 feet for 1 yard.
Sometimes MM are good because they're smaller than anything we've got ( it took big ones to get us to the moon ) and easier than decimals but that's about it.
The only downside to the freedom system is fractional measurement,  but I just haven't mastered it yet.

Btw I've gotten torx at HD before.

[bmwrd0]

Yeah, Torx or Roberson drive are better for power drive stuff, but if you have to take it out by hand later... You are out of luck.

The one thing I have changed my mind on is digital meters. I used to love analog, especially my little Triplett 310s, watching the needle move back and forth, but I just can't anymore. Give me a good Fluke any day now.

[muddy]

Next comes embracing metric system measures and shunning that obsolete English crap.

How dare you!

Sent from the twisted mind of the Mudman

[J.A.F.E.]

Next comes embracing metric system measures and shunning that obsolete English crap.

How dare you!

Sent from the twisted mind of the Mudman

Thank you.  Some sanity exists still.

[DeadNutz]

Next comes embracing metric system measures and shunning that obsolete English crap.

How dare you!




Sent from the twisted mind of the Mudman

Thank you.  Some sanity exists still.

You can buy plywood in metric thicknesses if you so desire.

[J.A.F.E.]

You can buy plywood in metric thicknesses if you so desire.

Window glass (really all float glass) and acrylic sheet as well. Come to think of it sheet metal sometimes is given in mm.

[highland512]

Torx only at my place. Torx screws and a cordless impact make quick work of fastening wood.

[Heiny57]

/\.      I agree, I have completely switched to torx for all wood fastenings if it can’t be nailed. They can be removed if needed where Phillips cannot on larger screws.
 
I don’t see Phillips drywall screws ever be replaced in commercial drywall hanging because of its ease of handling and it’s ability to be accurately set to depth with a commercial screw gun. Thousands of screws can be set with a single tip.

[J.A.F.E.]

I remodeled the bathroom in our old place and used Hardie Backer on the floor and shower stall. The screws for it from the same company used T25 if memory serves. I know I used only one bit for the whole project. I can't imagine I'd be able say that about Phillips.

As to drywall, my new house is all steel stud construction so screwing drywall is, well, different.

[john k]

Agree, on construction screws, philips just doesnt cut it.  As far as the metric system,  they gave the basics in high school science and I said, why bother.  Here came the Army, meters, kilos and such.  My farm boy mind was locked into feet, yards, quarter mile and miles.  How many meters is that private?   Yeah, mentally going  from 1,000 ft to yards to 29 inch long meters,  no fun when adjusting artillery fire.  Then they switched to meter maps,  too coarse of measurements, we had guys getting lost because small hills did not show up, that are plain on a feet measured map.   Then the auto industry jumped to the metric system, oh yeah,  go buy some wrenches,  sockets, even adjustable wrenches, no kidding still got them.   My metric all lives in one drawer,  they never got along with the SAE.  Do not blame them.

[strik9]

Metric wasn't a choice for me as much as a forced adaptation.  I moved out of the US and where metric rules.

A measurement in any standard works if the piece fits.  I have even fabbed up stuff in steel not measuring but just using template technology.
I couldn't tell you how big any of it was but the parts fit perfectly.  The boss was liking the results but not the method.

Now digital verneer calipers can also do fractional as well as decimal inches in the better models like my boss has, the accuracy is good.
The learning curve is gone.  I never did learn how to use the other styles and now have no reason to.

Torx and it's generic equivalent were used heavily in some German makes and I came to like that.  The others moved to other new fangled fasteners that also work well, but didn't last ten years in the market before they went out of common use too.
I am not sure why but dammit, stop fixing what didn't break.
Bikes are still stuck deep in Allen type fasteners, that's cool.

[Uncle Buck]

At 58 I don't see myself ever preferring the metric system. Everyone says it is easier, it never was for me, I never understood it and I still do not. I find it just confusing as hell and resent the fact that everything automotive went metric.   

[J.A.F.E.]

I am comfortable using the French system I just prefer our system.

[strik9]

Metric is just a decimal system to mark the sizes instead of fractional.

Go back far enough and it was cubits and digits.  And despite a forearm being different for near everyone they made boats and buildings that held up.

It's all just a way to say how much or how big.

[J.A.F.E.]

<snip>
Go back far enough and it was cubits and digits.  <snip>

Go back? Whaddya mean I was there.

[goodfellow]

At 58 I don't see myself ever preferring the metric system. Everyone says it is easier, it never was for me, I never understood it and I still do not. I find it just confusing as hell and resent the fact that everything automotive went metric.   

My entire career was centered around the metric system, yet from a personal machining and fabrication perspective I prefer the US standard system. Working in thousandths of an inch is more intuitive to me. Many machinists and tool/die makers, especially in the aviation industry, still work with the SAE system. 

[J.A.F.E.]

Where I have a choice I will always use inch based hardware and when building stuff if I have a choice will always use inches. When I had access to Auto CAD I could set it to dual dimension so if I need the French system entering one dimension displayed both. It's a handy feature the kind of thing that helps prevent confusion. In 1999 NASA's Mars Climate Orbiter burned up in the Martian atmosphere because of confusion between the two systems. A very expensive Uh-oh.

[strik9]

Tech is taking the schooling out of design for sure.  You don't have to know how to convert measures in your head anymore.

We have a chart on a cabinet door with measures conversion the boss uses near daily, myself near never.
It fits or it doesn't.  Adjust as required.  I don't need to know the measurement if it fits.

[J.A.F.E.]

Software takes a lot of things out of schooling but it's not usually a good idea. Because someone has a keyboard and a screen doesn't mean they can write well. Or even coherently. People have spell checkers and still type out crap that's almost unintelligible. My former boss the troll was functionally illiterate and to read this sentence he would have had to sound most of it out loud and it's 50/50 if could understand it. Yet he can touch type although he can't read most of what he types.

Measuring systems when they work as designed means things can be made in different places at different times and work together. Ikea has certainly illustrated how well that can work. Anything you buy has parts made in different factories often in different countries and yet I have never assembled anything from them that did not fit perfectly. A lesson some car parts manufacturers could learn from.

[muddy]

At my age I have to work with both. So I've come to know both. Although I can't tell you how many MM thick that steel plate is. But if you tell me it's 10 mm I know it's about 3/8".

I worked with a kid who didn't know SAE wrench sizes.

Sent from the twisted mind of the Mudman

[strik9]

If Cryslur learns anything from Ikea it will be pressboard and plastic are cheaper than metal parts. 

Be careful what you ask for.

I too use both ranges of tools on the job.   I hardly make a distinction between the near matching sizes and use whatever is closer.  If it doesn't muck up the fasteners it's good.

The purist types can think they are doing a better job but it's all the same to the bolts.

[J.A.F.E.]

If cryslur was capable of learning anything they wouldn't be owned by Fiat.

[muddy]

If Cryslur learns anything from Ikea it will be pressboard and plastic are cheaper than metal parts. 

Be careful what you ask for.

I too use both ranges of tools on the job.   I hardly make a distinction between the near matching sizes and use whatever is closer.  If it doesn't muck up the fasteners it's good.

The purist types can think they are doing a better job but it's all the same to the bolts.

The way the pickups rotted in the early 2000s I'd swear that's what they were made of.

If cryslur was capable of learning anything they wouldn't be owned by Fiat.

I think FIAT has done a lot for them actually, same goes for CNH (Case New Holland).

Sent from the twisted mind of the Mudman