New cars! -- shades of things to come.

[goodfellow]

The time for DIY and Indy garage service is slowly coming to an end. Most new cars will have (some already have) a secure gateway installed at the interface to the OBDII connection. That is to say, although your scan tool will connect, it will require a factory authorized access code to read and control the various data stores and modules in the system. The factory code can only be provided by an authorized factory scan tool in the possession of a licensed factory designated repair center. Indy garages and DIY folks will not be authorized to purchase and run the software -- probably under penalty of law if they do. If you hack the system (as is often possible), the system will know about the hack(s) through the use of block chain based integrity checks, and immediately void your warranty.

Many 2019 cars are already equipped with such secure gateways -- if you are a DIY guy and work on your own vehicles to save a bucks, remember to do your homework.

European cars are even going a step further, in that they now encode even the mechanical components with electronic signature chips that are VIN matched to the vehicle computer. For example if the transmission on your Mercedes fails, you can't just go to the recycler and pick up a used transmission. Even if installed correctly, it won't work because the used transmission is not electronically VIN matched to the ECM. Mercedes and many other Euro brands want ALL work to flow through its dealership networks; hence they are starting to encode not only electrical modules, but also mechanical parts to the specific VIN of the car. To install a used mechanical part, you will need the proprietary MB or BMW diagnostic software to update the vehicle computer and CAN bus modules.

The race is on to squeeze out the DIY guys and independent service centers -- in a few years it will most likely be illegal for you to work on your own vehicle.

[stokester]

Yes, we are there, have been for a few years.

There is a secure gateway imbedded on modern systems so that malicious code cannot infect the ECM, ABS... computers from the external WiFi and satellite inputs.

ECM software modifications are used by some for increased performance, yes the reflashes are stored on the ECM and available to the OEM for evaluation if a warranty issue arrises.

I had to do a software update on a Chevy Spark (Daewoo) and because its software is managed in Europe there were numerous hoops to jump through just to get access to the proper files... and I worked at a Chevy shop!

[J.A.F.E.]

Sort of a mixed bag. Another thing I think that will aim buyers down the leasing path how many of us would buy a car we can't repair? But with the complexity of cars growing every year it's inevitable. The self driving features will IMO tip the balance. So much liability involved not much choice really. I think if cars ever achieve full driverless no controls inside they will be used as an oncall service no one will own them. Maybe the wealthier segment will be able to lease them.

[slip knot]

Wasn't John Deere pushing this a while back and wound up in court? I don't recall the outcome now but I remember the case was about the proprietary computer diagnostics.

[Matt_T]

Not sure how much of an issue this is really going to be. Most diyers seem to be limited to OBDII code readers and I don't think the OEMs can legally restrict access to the OBDII mandated codes and PIDs.

And Indy access to OEM documentation and software should be improving thanks to a Mass "right to repair" law which has triggered a national agreement. If the OEMs get to crawfishing then the push for legislation will resume in other States and at the national level.

https://www.autonews.com/article/20140125/RETAIL05/301279936/automakers-agree-to-right-to-repair-deal

Here is the link to GMs price list. Not really expensive and the 3 day prices may be of interest to diyers too.

https://www.acdelcotds.com/acdelco/action/subscribehome

[goodfellow]

Thanks Matt -- the diag tools from GM are not that expensive. The cost is doable for the average DIY guy. That said, I think the large Euro car industry is pushing a lot of these proprietary access initiatives. The US and Asian manufcaturers are probably watching from the sidelines to see how it plays out.

"Right to Repair" is a good deal, but I think the Euro guys are trying to game the system with new technologies that force customers into authorized repair centers using properly encoded parts. The aftermarket is rightly feeling squeezed. There are many forums that are discussing these issues, and I'm not up on the legislative or industry lobbying efforts, but it is quite disturbing from where I sit as a DIY guy. 

[stokester]

As an example...

I was unable to program a salvage instrument panel cluster for my daughter's 2003 Saturn Ion to reflect the mileage from the body control module because the VINs do not match.  I used the GM tool on a notebook computer through an MDI and it would not allow me to change the VIN embedded in the IPC.  If I purchased a rebuilt IPC from a third party it would allow the factory tool to add a VIN.

There is always a catch.  Fortunately in our case it just displays a service message which can be cleared but the mileage does not change from that of the salvage IPC.

[Matt_T]

Thanks Matt -- the diag tools from GM are not that expensive. The cost is doable for the average DIY guy. That said, I think the large Euro car industry is pushing a lot of these proprietary access initiatives. The US and Asian manufcaturers are probably watching from the sidelines to see how it plays out.

"Right to Repair" is a good deal, but I think the Euro guys are trying to game the system with new technologies that force customers into authorized repair centers using properly encoded parts. The aftermarket is rightly feeling squeezed. There are many forums that are discussing these issues, and I'm not up on the legislative or industry lobbying efforts, but it is quite disturbing from where I sit as a DIY guy.

Just to be clear those prices are just for the software. You'll need to buy a compatible PC to vehicle interface to use them with. As an aside some of the cheaper interfaces also come with cracked versions of the OEM software.

If the germans are trying to circumvent the national agreement and Mass law it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

VIN coding affecting used parts is another matter and nothing new. It goes back so far it's mentioned in the Snap on brick manuals. It's not uncommon for this to be a one time deal where you can't even change it with the OEM tools. Like the example stokester gave. And in his example an aftermarket solution was available if he'd been willing to pay for it.

[fatfillup]

If the germans are trying to circumvent the national agreement and Mass law it will be interesting to see how it plays out.

The Germans would never try to circumvent the law,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,unless it was to their benefit

[pep]

It is not a new,  Filed engineers as far back as 1980, used what was called a service module to run diags and set parameters of the on board electronics. Before the laptops and dongles that are now common.

When customers asked to purchase the service module, the company response, Intellectual property and not for sale. Not surprised this is happening myself, and have kind of expected it to have been locked down sooner.

The dirty little  secret regarding computer control. It is very easy to work with, tells on itself. Using a simple flow chart, it starts with the last link of the chain and works its way back to the first component of the system. In others words when all else fails replace, in this case the car.

Not all that smart looking from the bottom up, when a good troubleshooter can see or find a failing component in the middle of that chain.

But that's what we have today, parts changers, lacking in the ability to think thru system processes, and understand how a machine is supposed to work in the first place.

For me keeping my 99 for now, the wife's CTS, will require trips to a service provider that will have the ability to, LOL change parts. Even that, considering the modular designs, can require in some cases the front clip or engine to be removed to change the water or PS pump .

Pep

[highland512]

Wasn't John Deere pushing this a while back and wound up in court? I don't recall the outcome now but I remember the case was about the proprietary computer diagnostics.

Yes and Cat aswell, there is a interesting video on youtube on this very topic. Young farmers are buying pirated software on the dark web just to work on their own equipment. There has also been an increase in $$$$ for good quality used equipment.

[Elroy]

Just wait around. At some point your insurance carrier will be sending you a premium increase notification because your tire pressure is too low or because you were found speeding in a school zone at 3 AM.

Question is: Are they going to send that notification via carrier pigeon, snail mail or via Elroy's tin hat ??

Like it or not 1984 is here. Elroy would suggest one NOT ask Ted Kaczynski for guidance in dealing with ever increasing intrusion in one life and "erosion of human freedom". What the hell do you mean I can't fix MY equipment. It's destined to get more and more complicated.

[J.A.F.E.]

Just wait around. At some point your insurance carrier will be sending you a premium increase notification because your tire pressure is too low or because you were found speeding in a school zone at 3 AM.

[snip]

That is not at all far fetched. At least one of the insurance companies (Progressive?) has a dongle for the ODB port for the express purpose of monitoring your driving.  At present there's no way to distinguish drivers but since most adjust seat positions and some cars have seat/mirror presets not hard to distinguish driver 1 from driver 2. Might not be doing it yet but if they can they will.

[slip knot]

A bit off topic but somewhat relevant.

Our community put in auto read water meters a few years ago. Everyone thought they were great, until they started getting their fines in the mail. During drought years we are limited on lawn watering. With the auto reads they can set up a program that tells them when people are watering out of cycle and send them a notice/fine. Now everyone wants to take them out. Oopsie.

[walrus]

I'd do basic stuff on a new vehicle, brakes , plugs etc but Im not getting into diagnostics. Just dont have it in me anymore.  Probably take it to dealer and get a large invoice to pay.

I thought there were laws that auto makers had to make it so indy shops coild work on new vehicles ? Of course if you follow the money that law could be gone.

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