Author Topic: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?  (Read 18845 times)

Offline bonneyman

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What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« on: December 20, 2018, 07:14:17 PM »
In my research on oils, lubes, and engine additives I came across some fascinating and unexpected facts, some of which lead into our fellow member Steve's "JAFE Juice". Figured it would be helpful and interesting to my friend's here.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 01:13:04 PM by bonneyman »

Offline goodfellow

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #1 on: December 20, 2018, 07:43:39 PM »
The original article which references the formula that everyone refers to (Acetone and ATF) was actually based on an article in IIRC The Home Shop Machinist. Unfortunately the author made a mistake. When he tested the various commercial off the shelf and home brew solutions he mistakenly ranked Acetone and ATF as the "best" solution in his tests. Unfortunately the "best" solution was actually Acetone and Power Steering Fluid (based on the tests he performed for the article). He admitted to the mistake in subsequent publications.

Ever since that article, the Acetone/AFT mix has become so popular that everyone forgot about the better performing Acetone/PS mix -- which by the way will stay mixed much longer than the ATF solution.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 07:45:30 PM by goodfellow »

Offline J.A.F.E.

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #2 on: December 20, 2018, 09:05:11 PM »
I was introduced to it as a kid the guy I worked for used it so it's been around a long time - I'm sure he didn't invent it.

PST may work a little better than ATF as far as I know they are similar except for some additives and dye. I usually use ATF because I almost always have some open.
People who confuse etymology and entomology bug me in ways I can’t put into words.

Offline goodfellow

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2018, 09:36:32 PM »
I was introduced to it as a kid the guy I worked for used it so it's been around a long time - I'm sure he didn't invent it.

PST may work a little better than ATF as far as I know they are similar except for some additives and dye. I usually use ATF because I almost always have some open.

Yeah -- the acetone/oil mix has been around since probably the early 1900's industrial revolution days. Most of the motor pool guys serving in WWII used similar concoctions. As far as I know though, the Home Shop Machinist article was the first time someone took many of the available commercial and home-brew options and presented the results based on a pretty darn good controlled test. The results were pretty amazing -- Kroil and PB blaster led the commercial product results, while Acetone/PS (which is mostly mineral oil) and Acetone/ATF were the leaders in the home-brew category. When compared to each other, Acetone/PS and Kroil pretty much rated evenly; with Acetone ATF a close second (better than PB Plaster IIRC)

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2018, 09:41:49 PM »
The original article which references the formula that everyone refers to (Acetone and ATF) was actually based on an article in IIRC The Home Shop Machinist. Unfortunately the author made a mistake. When he tested the various commercial off the shelf and home brew solutions he mistakenly ranked Acetone and ATF as the "best" solution in his tests. Unfortunately the "best" solution was actually Acetone and Power Steering Fluid (based on the tests he performed for the article). He admitted to the mistake in subsequent publications.

Ever since that article, the Acetone/AFT mix has become so popular that everyone forgot about the better performing Acetone/PS mix -- which by the way will stay mixed much longer than the ATF solution.

Yeah, I've noticed that myself. When pulling my jar of mix off of the shelf it looks like salad dressing - and I gotta shake it up.

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2018, 08:59:02 AM »
I didn't know about the acetone/PSF mix - guess I'll have to do some research on power steering fluid and see what comes up. What follows is about the commonly used acetone/ATF mixture.

The acetone component:
Acetone is a good solvent. The molecule has both polar and non-polar "parts" in it, so it can dissolve both kinds of materials. I've read in one of my old chemistry books that acetone is as close to a universal solvent that there is.
It is the cheapest solvent available in large quantities, and it is rated fairly low on toxicity. In fact, it is a naturally occurring chemical, and is even found in the human body in very small amounts. It can be mixed with water for use as a cleaner, and when used it cleans without leaving any residue or film behind.

All of these qualities show why acetone is used in the mix. Grease and varnish and resinous oils can be dissolved readily, so a gunked up ratchet or stuck carbonized bolt can be loosened with it.

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2018, 08:59:41 AM »
The ATF (automatic transmission fluid) component:

Originally, automatic transmissions used whale oil (also known as sperm oil) as their main ingredient. Sperm oil was a product of the whaling industry, being used in lanterns that burned with no smoke. A component of the sperm oil was used to make candles that burned very cleanly with no smoke. Back in the day this alone made it a sought-after commodity.
https://www.scran.ac.uk/packs/exhibitions/learning_materials/webs/40/lubricants.htm

Sperm oil was found to be a very good lubricant. As the machinery age bloomed the demand for such a high quality lubricating oil increased. It has a very low freezing point (finding it's way into use in the space program!)
https://www.treehugger.com/clean-technology/whale-oil-as-space-lubricant-better-than-anything-we-can-create.html

In fact, it was used in a wide variety of machine uses, as no other known lubricant could be found to improve on it's characteristics.
http://www.petroleumhistory.org/OilHistory/pages/Whale/oil_uses.html

So when the automotive industry needed a fluid to operate and lubricate their transmissions, whale oil was the lube of choice! It was very stable, had great lubricity, was non-reactive to car parts, and thermally resistant. So long as the temperature was kept below 175 deg F, it was the best solution around. Though there were alternatives for most of the other whale products, the oil was just so good it persisted into the 20th century.
With the increase in the number of cars, however, the demand for sperm oil rose to the point that the whale population started to decline precipitously. With whaling being largely banned in 1973, engineers had to come up with a synthetic alternative. Transmissions were also being tasked with working under higher temperatures, so another oil had to be found. (Even so, most modern fluids must be kept cooler than 200 deg F. Transmission fluid coolers are very common on cars now, and any water coolant leak means one should probably change their ATF, as hotter temperatures just scorch the fluid).

It's this petrochemical research necessitated by a need to replace sperm oil that led to the modern ATF.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 09:32:32 AM by bonneyman »

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2018, 09:51:58 AM »
Modern ATF is a mixture of highly refined components, each designed to add its specific property to the mix. I would say that of all the chemicals used in an automobile, the automatic transmission fluid is the most complex.

Most companies are highly reluctant to share their "proprietary" compositions, as evidenced by these SDS's.
https://www.grovesindustrial.com/msds/ILU_TRANS.pdf
https://www.onboces.org/cms/lib/NY02216875/Centricity/Shared/MSDS%20K_List/Kendall%20Dexron%20Mercon%20ATF.pdf
They either don't tell you what's in it, or basically do a "data dump" of every possible oil it COULD be so as to avoid listing what is actually in it. Really helpful to say a poison control center, don't you think? Though, when you've read as many SDS's as I have, you see trends and learn characteristics, and can whittle down the probable list of suspects.

AMSOIL's synthetic ATF looks like it has some serious silicones in there.
https://www.amsoil.com/msds/atf.pdf

This last one, a licensed Dexron 3 type, sheds some light on what we're after.
https://www.tetconnect.com/images/stories/virtuemart/documents/XPF001_SDS.pdf

Though not listing the main carrier oil, it lists a light naphthenic mixture (very good solvency and oxidation resistance) with DMSO (a penetrant), as well as an alcohol and toluene (solvents). The DMSO component is intriguing.

DMSO (dimethylsulfoxide) is a by-product of the wood industry. It has the uncanny ability to penetrate microscopic openings, carrying in with it whatever it's mixed with. Used straight, it's a good liniment. (I remember reading while in the military that nerve agents were mixed with DMSO to increase their "effectiveness"). This allows the ATF to penetrate the smallest crevices - even the smallest pores in the metal itself - of the inner transmission parts, keeping them lubricated with a film boundary to reduce wear. So, in our JAFE Juice mix, the ATF helps with penetrating into stuck mechanisms, and the superb lubrication base oil carried in by the DMSO helps us to slide things apart.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 04:47:57 PM by bonneyman »

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2018, 09:55:18 AM »
So there you have it! The acetone dissolves almost all varnish, grease, gunk and grime, so the ATF can penetrate through the tiniest cracks and openings, and then a slippery oil can get in there and let us disassemble things.

About the only unsafe thing I can see is wear quality nitrile rubber gloves, as the DMSO  - though a very small component - can penetrate your skin and bring with it some of the other components. Even so, wash you hands thoroughly after using it.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2019, 04:49:17 PM by bonneyman »

Offline Matt_T

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2018, 10:05:47 AM »
Kroil and PB blaster led the commercial product results,

For commercial Kroil was best with Liquid Wrench a close second. P'Blaster came in a distant third just ahead of WD-40.

Offline goodfellow

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2018, 10:14:50 AM »
Kroil and PB blaster led the commercial product results,

For commercial Kroil was best with Liquid Wrench a close second. P'Blaster came in a distant third just ahead of WD-40.

Yeah Matt, I've seen test results over the years where the rankings were different among the top three commercial offerings (Kroil. PBB, LW, etc) -- but during this Home Machinist test article, the PBB was second, and IIRC I don't think the author even tested a Liquid Wrench product.

Offline fatfillup

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2018, 10:30:01 AM »
I have found wd 40 great for cleaning tools.  Chuck up a socket and shoot a little wd 40 on it and spin it while holding it in 000 steel wool if chrome, or med scotch brite for impact and they come out nice and the wd 40 disappears after a while.

Offline goodfellow

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2018, 10:39:14 AM »
Well -- my memory was off given it was over 10 years ago. It was not Home Shop Machinist, but its sister publication Machinist's Workshop, and here are the results ...as quoted from a post on the Jeep forum. My apologies Matt -- Liquid Wrench was part of the test and did very well - better than PB Blaster; so i was wrong on the outcomes. If you want to follow the discussion(s), and there are literally hundreds after this article came out, just Google "Machinist's Workshop Rust Penetrant Test".

I subscribed to these magazines back in the day and can try to go through the old stacks in my cellar to find the original article if anyone wants it. 

As quoted from the Jeep forum below.......

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Article in the April/May 2007 issue of Machinist's Workshop.

They corroded nuts/bolts so there were enough samples to try out the various penetrating oils on.

The nuts/bolts were tested by soaking them in the penetrating oils for 8 hours.
The load needed to break the nuts free was tested using a Baldwin compressometer.

The results (lower is better):

> 50/50 mix of PSF & acetone - 53 Lbs
> Kroil - 106 Lbs
> Liquid Wrench - 127 Lbs
> PB Blaster - 214 Lbs
> WD-40 - 238 Lbs
> None - 516 Lbs

A followup notice/correction stated that it was not ATF that was used in the tests, but power steering fluid & acetone.
The article stated atf, but the photograph showed power steering fluid.

« Last Edit: December 21, 2018, 10:58:33 AM by goodfellow »

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2018, 01:09:56 PM »
Dang, the acetone/PSF mixture reduced the force needed by almost 90%!

Offline bonneyman

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Re: What makes JAFE JUICE work so well?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2018, 01:12:23 PM »
Now that I've wrote out all the pertinent research on acetone/ATF I thought I'd share one of the most fascinating tangential aspects that the researching process revealed.

Originally, sperm oil was used for a broad array of products. I invite you to do some research into it - you'll be amazed at how special that stuff is!

Our current discussion will be limited to it's use in transmissions and differentials on cars. There was just nothing else that had the thermal stability, antioxidant properties, and overall performance. But we couldn't go on harvesting whales to feed our ever increasing need for the oil. Petrochemical research came up with alternatives that do work and ended the need for slaughtering whales.
While looking over articles about whale oil I came across a page on jojoba oil. Apparently, it's structure is nearly identical to that of sperm oil. Here's a pretty technical paper on it from 2008:
https://www.tsijournals.com/articles/study-of-quality-parameters-of-jojoba-oil-important-for-production-of-value-added-products.pdf

Don't ask me to explain it - I'm not a biochemist. I'm at a loss as to how a plant-based material can be virtually the same as an animal-based one. But apparently it is. So much so that tests have been performed with the two oils side-by-side, and the results are very similar.
https://pubag.nal.usda.gov/download/25253/PDF
https://www.probotanic.com/pdf_istrazivanja/ulje_jojobe/Ulje%20jojobe%20-%20informacije%20i%20upotreba.pdf

Jojoba oil is quite unique as virtually no other species produces an oil like it. The components of the oil are very much animal-like, with properties that mimic those of sperm oil. It doesn't gum up or go rancid.  In one paper I read that jojoba oil composition isn't affected up temperatures up to 570 deg F! https://hort.purdue.edu/newcrop/afcm/jojoba.html
The reason why we haven't heard much about it is because it is a bit difficult to cultivate, and expensive compared to other, petroleum-based oils. As it takes 17 pounds of jojoba seeds to make one gallon of oil, you can see why it's not on every store shelf!

These are just a few of the interesting facts I've read about jojoba oil. I might buy some and use in in some recipes that call for ATF and see what happens.
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 09:17:14 AM by bonneyman »