Author Topic: Post virus world changes  (Read 14759 times)

Offline jabberwoki

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Post virus world changes
« on: March 21, 2020, 10:46:43 PM »
When this crap settles down, what changes in the word do you see?
More power to the Britain brexit movement in other countries ? A shunning of china?
Should be interesting.
Is the need enough? Or does the want suffice?

Offline pep

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2020, 06:42:16 AM »
Hopefully more people staying home off the roads.

Reality SOSDD   :lol_hitting:
1776 ................... what happened!

Offline coolmercury

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #2 on: March 22, 2020, 08:01:31 AM »
More regard for those who prepare for emergencies.  We have only bought bread, milk and orange juice during the past couple of weeks.  And, we can last for at least three months without those items.  I learned my lessons in Florida having lived there for 59 years and experiencing dozens of hurricanes.

Offline goodfellow

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #3 on: March 22, 2020, 08:53:07 AM »
I don't predict any major effects. Our economy is based on consumer spending and that dynamic will not change. Human nature will kick-in and people will go on spending sprees to restock their homes or make themselves more comfortable. I see the travel industry revitalized this summer as people will want to take advantage of all the discounts being offered by the various corporations -- hotels, airlines, cruises, etc.

Watch for steep discounts on cars and consumer goods coming later this year. Inventory for 2020 is piled up and that needs to move out before the 2021 inventory can hit the shelves.

Offline slip knot

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #4 on: March 22, 2020, 09:30:52 AM »
I see a lot of the small mom and Pop places shutting down and going away. They wont be able to take the loss'. Some of the bigger corp. may go belly up too. if they don't get bailed out :021: :021: I don't see Boeing coming out of this in one piece. The travel industries will struggle short term, but we as a people are pretty forgetful so they can make it if they can hold out long enough.

The companies that cater to the prepper crowd will boom short term, but again we are a forgetful people.

This is making the assumption that this Wuhan virus mess doesn't drag on for months/years.

Offline bonneyman

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #5 on: March 22, 2020, 09:55:41 AM »
Hard to predict the future - too many variables involved. Though I don't expect things to return to the old kind of "normal".

Offline strik9

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #6 on: March 22, 2020, 10:23:19 AM »
We had a major shaker two years ago that tumbled buildings and killed a bunch of people.  Most of the buildings are rebuilt or bare lots, the funerals are done and life goes on pretty much as before.

This will be the same.  We are too lazy to remain vigilent against a virus that made the rounds two years ago.  We won't be worried about this in two years.

And a lot of idiots will have mouse chewed tp stockpiled  they hate to leave for guests.

My uncle had 40 plastic tubs of dry type prepper foods in his garage that all got tossed after his death.  Couldn't sell it and nobody was brave enough to eat 12 year old buggy grains.

Life goes on once we pass the speed bumps.
But keep up the demand for ammo.  It drives up my pay on scrap brass and lead.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 10:27:04 AM by strik9 »

Offline Heiny57

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2020, 11:09:55 AM »
I would feel more comfortable if I could source a good human flesh cookbook.  :93:
MAGA

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Offline goodfellow

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2020, 11:44:54 AM »
I would feel more comfortable if I could source a good human flesh cookbook.  :93:

As in ......."To Serve Man!" -- guys our age remember that title.

Offline slip knot

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #9 on: March 22, 2020, 12:48:57 PM »
I would feel more comfortable if I could source a good human flesh cookbook.  :93:


Too many fat ones around here. By the time you got the grease fire out there wouldn't be nothing left. :lol_hitting:

Offline J.A.F.E.

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #10 on: March 22, 2020, 12:55:04 PM »
I would feel more comfortable if I could source a good human flesh cookbook.  :93:

What how hard is it to cook up some ribs and a side of thighs?
People who confuse etymology and entomology bug me in ways I can’t put into words.

Offline hickory n Steel

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #11 on: March 22, 2020, 01:20:07 PM »
I do not know what changes are to come, but while I expect there to be a few I don't think they'll be very significant.
Think about how it must have been during the polio pandemic or the first influenza outbreak, medicine was not as advanced as it was now and a lot of the technology and conveniences we have today were not present.
Information in the palm of your hand, food delivery everywhere,grocery and supply delivery available within hours.

Major changes came when those eye openers wiped through the nation, at this point I'm not sure there's much that can change unless people change their way of life in a major way which we all know nobody wants to do.
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Offline lauver

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #12 on: March 22, 2020, 03:06:19 PM »
gang,

On the upside, the local fuel prices have improved dramatically in the last month; i.e. Gas=$1.81 & Diesel=$2.25.  Not bad!

How about your areas?
When my wife leaves me, my dog dies, and they repossess my home, I'll still have my tools.

Offline goodfellow

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #13 on: March 22, 2020, 04:58:04 PM »
gang,

On the upside, the local fuel prices have improved dramatically in the last month; i.e. Gas=$1.81 & Diesel=$2.25.  Not bad!

How about your areas?

Fuel hasn't dropped more than a few cents in my area. $2.31 for Regular 87 octane. DC suburban neighborhoods pay some of the highest prices, and as usual they are the first to go up, and the last to go down.

Daughter paid $1.97 at a deep discount at COSTCO though.
« Last Edit: March 22, 2020, 04:59:56 PM by goodfellow »

Offline DeadNutz

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #14 on: March 22, 2020, 06:19:31 PM »
I fueled the truck and a 5gal can today. Unleaded was $2.56/gal and ethanol free was $2.96/gal which is about .40/gal lower than 2 weeks ago.

Offline bonneyman

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2020, 06:55:47 PM »
Gas is down around $2.30 per gallon but who knows how long/deep the oil wars will go. Anyway I'm getting a solid 16+mpg in town with the Astro van so I'm thrilled.

Offline bmwrd0

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2020, 07:02:15 PM »
I think people are realizing that a lot of "regulated" things don't matter. That much of that is BS, kinda like the TSA and bottle sizes, stuff like that. Trucking regs and such. Also, what is truly important and what is just fluff. Like family.

I also see a lot of mom and pop things going under, and people taking those things over as a hobby. Already started seeing it before, but now people don't care what the tax man thinks.

Offline jabberwoki

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2020, 09:54:18 PM »
Greedy WA it`s just about $3.00 bloody greedy gov
Is the need enough? Or does the want suffice?

Offline Lookin4_67GalaxieConv

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2020, 12:24:29 AM »
I can't give the response I want to give without getting political, but I'll just say I can see certain people wanting to take advantage of all this very easily.
boop/bop/beep

Offline highland512

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2020, 08:11:01 AM »
Nothing will change, a year from now people will go back to not keeping anything in their house and the next time something happens they will rush out an buy some other crazy product like TP was this time. I hope people will realize that China is the devil we (on this and former tool boards) have known about. Maybe they will wake up to the fact that we are totaly dependent on the commies and demand USA made again....but I doubt it. One thing I think has changed is the 2A crowd. The amount of first time gun buyers in the past week is amazing, as long as they dont accidentally shoot them self with their new purchase, maybe we will have some more people to fight against the gun grabbers.  :08:

This is going to hit the local restaurants the hardest, I know I ordered takeout for my house the other night just to support a local family owned eatery with some great food and service. The owner and his family where the only ones working, he said things where very tight $$ wise but they where holding on. If you enjoy a local independent eatery in your area, go support them. 

Offline jabberwoki

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2020, 07:07:41 PM »
I can't give the response I want to give without getting political, but I'll just say I can see certain people wanting to take advantage of all this very easily.

Do it I`m really wanting to hear what's on everybody's minds.
Is the need enough? Or does the want suffice?

Offline goodfellow

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2020, 09:01:46 PM »
I do suspect one thing. Cross-border travel will be very restricted for the foreseeable future. Many countries will most likely institute vaccination and health check requirements to travel through, or within their borders. Back in the day it was a common practice to require such documentation, but globalism and open cross border trade/cooperation forced politicians to rescind those legal statutes.

Up until a few years ago we thought we had eradicated polio and tuberculosis in this country, yet with massive immigration (legal and illegal), those diseases are making a comeback. This Chinese COVID-19 virus may force the US to reinstate those earlier controls. The Europeans are already closing borders, and who knows if they will ever open up in the same manner as before.

Offline jabberwoki

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2020, 09:19:31 PM »
Yep I agree Europe heck every country will be re thinking their border policies.
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Offline slip knot

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2020, 09:31:46 PM »
Yep I agree Europe heck every country will be re thinking their border policies.

As they should. A porous border is an open invitation to disaster.

Offline Lookin4_67GalaxieConv

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2020, 11:37:07 PM »
I can't give the response I want to give without getting political, but I'll just say I can see certain people wanting to take advantage of all this very easily.

Do it I`m really wanting to hear what's on everybody's minds.

If this gets moved to Politics or somebody starts a thread over there about it.   ;)
boop/bop/beep

Offline Lookin4_67GalaxieConv

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #25 on: April 04, 2020, 01:13:21 AM »
Okay, now that this in Politics I will let loose.  This whole thing has scared the shit out of me.  Not because of the virus itself, but because of how docile we become in times like these.  It seems we blindly follow whatever our "leaders" tell us, the same leaders we were deriding the day before.  Individual rights are always the first to go, we're told, because we have to do everything collectively.  Always keep that in mind.  Re: the virus, this doesn't sound like anything that came up organically, but more like it was concocted in a laboratory and given to people to infect others without anyone knowing.  Seems to me that it's a biological weapon.  The latest I've heard is that a vaccine is being developed by the Gates Foundation.  Hmmm...no thanks.  I'm not an anti-vaxxer but I have no interest in being vaccinated by Bill "New World Order" Gates. 

Now I'm not saying we should defy the social distancing rules for the time being.  But if this drags into May and June, look out.  We've already legislated a massive spending bill, and politicians of all stripes are ready to spend more of your great grandchildren's money.  California governor Gavin Newsome has already been quoted about using this virus as a means to further the progressive agenda.  James Clyburn of South Carolina has commented that the huge "stimulus" bill would be a good way to push progressive bullshit.

Now look how daily life has changed.  A lot fewer people are on the roads, nobody is eating in restaurants, and curfews are in place.  What the hell does a curfew have to do with social distancing?  Hey, if they can decrease the number of miles driven by 2/3, how long do you think it will be until we're told we need permission to drive anywhere because of climate change, or whatever other bullshit agenda they're pushing?

Doesn't it feel to some of you like this is a trial run?  Unleash a virus, place all these restrictions in place that no one can argue with, and observe what happens.  The stock market has lost a third of its value in just over a month and we've added massive debt to our deficit.  I don't know exactly who or what is behind this but I have my theories.  You guys may think I'm a conspiracy theorist, and that's okay, I hope I'm wrong.  All I can leave you with is question everything that's going on right now and who may have what to gain from it.  Don't focus all your attention on news about the virus, focus your attention on what's taking place that they're justifying BECAUSE of the virus.

I should add that I've read people who had underlying medical conditions and Coronavirus symptoms then died are being counted as Coronavirus deaths.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 01:28:04 AM by Lookin4_67GalaxieConv »
boop/bop/beep

Offline Heiny57

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2020, 05:26:26 AM »
I won’t argue against your thinking, but I will just add these.

MAGA

If you can’t fix it with a hammer, it must be electrical.

Offline goodfellow

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2020, 09:57:34 AM »
Consensus is growing that China released the virus (accidentally or not) from that bio-lab in Wuhan. Wouldn't be a surprised if they intentionally spread it around the world to bring economies to standstill. Pre-Virus their economy was at a standstill, Hong Kong was rebelling, and internal and external political pressures were mounting with regard to civil rights for minorities in China and China's spying technology built into microchips. Their banks were failing due to failed construction loans, and off-book (shadow) banking practices. They were quickly going down the drain.

Fast forward to today and no one is talking about those issues anymore -- China is off the hook, and their manufacturing sector is ready to go. Oil is cheap and their factories can produce using cheap energy to outperform the rest of the world.

Conspiracy? maybe, but I see these issues being raised in recent days from an increasing number of online sources. We may never know, but trust in the Chinese system and their political leadership has been eroded to a very large degree.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 09:59:09 AM by goodfellow »

Offline bonneyman

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2020, 11:15:18 AM »
There's too many inconsistencies involved in this debacle. I'm highly suspicious of anything the "experts" say.

No one will be able to prove it, but I think the Chinese created this bug specifically as a weapon. Airborne transmission, highly infections, targets only people, a virus that can live on some surfaces for DAYS (last time I read about viruses they needed living tissue to survive and transmit), people can spread it for weeks without showing symptoms, etc. The chance of it developing naturally is very small. They took the proteins from several different strains specifically for their effects and hooked them all together to make this thing. "It came from eating exotic meats" - then why did the Chinese just reopen the wet markets? It was a weapon - perhaps a test run financial weapon - to see how bad they could affect the U.S. (Notice their buddies the Russians are not really experiencing the spread like most other developed countries, and are even sending masks and medical equipment to the U.S.)  Capitalism sucks, communism is really the best way - SEE? And just look at the effects. 10 million unemployed, thousands of businesses closed that won't reopen, people hoarding TP, idiot kids going on spring break then going home and spreading the disease (and google tracked their cell phones and know where they went. That in itself is frightening!). If the states were so worried about spring breakers then why didn't they close the beaches??? No, they close them AFTER spring break is over, then blame the kids. It's both! They didn't want to lose the income from the week of students coming in but then had to close the beaches (to locals) as a "show" of concern.
The Chinese are overextended financially, they can't keep the lies going, the trade war with the U.S. is hurting them. Before the commies loose control they pulled out their doomsday project. Let it lose domestically, they don't care if it kills their own people. If 500,000 or a million (or 20 million) die, it's only a drop in the bucket compared to their total 1.7 billion people. Plus it gives them cover, as nobody will believe a country would kill millions of their own civilians. (Though Stalin did it after WW2). So they had nothing left to lose. Trump is not going to give in, and even they can see he's gonna win re-election. They can't wait 5 years till political leadership changes, so they let the thing loose. And look at what it has done. Even military ships - like the carriers in the South China Sea arena - are infected and becoming less militarily effective. With all the attention back home about the collapsing economy and all, China can make their move and we'll be limited in our effective response.
Plus the propaganda campaign that followed and continues to be played out. Blame your enemies for doing exactly what you yourself are doing. The Dems do it all the time, and notice how many liberals are DEFENDING China and (again) nuking Trump. He didn't lockdown the borders (because he doesn't care), then when he does, he's racist! The several politicians who cashed in stocks a week before the virus caused the market crash, but there's no connection at all!
The ever increasing stay at home orders. Now there's talk of "it might take till July or August, perhaps longer". Britain is already circulating the news that they may be closed down for a year. Maybe in other countries, but here in America? Just the thought of National Guard troops being readied and deployed to "help stock groceries" is chilling. Plus they're shipping tanks into Tucson on trains. Why the heck do they need tanks - to deliver groceries? It's like their pre-positioning forces under the guise of "assistance" then they'll be activated into "security" overnight while we sleep. We allow it now because it seems helpful, but can turn deadly in an instant. I'm sorry but having U.S. armed soldiers on the streets threatening average Americans just ain't gonna fly. People are buying guns in droves, businesses are boarding up their shops fearing riots. People aren't as blind as the powerful think they are. But after months of no jobs, evictions, businesses collapsing, government assistance the only way to get by - what else do we think is gonna result?
Don't hoard masks as they don't prevent you from getting the disease. Now they're trying to make everybody wear them! What? Did all the doctors and nurses finally get all the masks they need? What about the shortages? Oh, so we can forgo keeping our distance in public? Nope, the masks don't guarantee your safety. Then why wear them???
I'm not heartless for those who have died, but destroying the country to "save" it is ridiculous. And all the Dems can think about is reparations, climate change, mail-in voting, and keeping abortion clinics open. Obvious political theater.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2020, 11:57:24 AM by bonneyman »

Offline DeadNutz

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2020, 11:23:38 AM »
My sister who has a PhD in nursing and worked critical and emergency care her whole career believes this was an engineered virus. I think was going to be a global pandemic whether planned for this time or not. The UN just appointed a Chinese official to a key post on the Human Rights Council and he will play a role in selection of investigators to check on abuses. A UN watchdog said it best when he compared it to a town hiring a pyromaniac as fire chief.

There is just too much about this whole situation that stinks and Lookin4 made some very good points and observations.

Offline Heiny57

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2020, 04:55:21 PM »
I, like Lookin, am much more afraid of what this is doing to our economy. If this shut down crap goes on another 4 weeks I don’t see us recover for a decade. This prediction that the economy will come screaming back is not going to happen. I’m afraid a real stock market crash is on the way. America’s economy depends on small business and they and a large number of medium size businesses will not come back. All the businesses that survive will limp along on survival mode, not growth and investment.

After reading Johns post something profound hit me. My father dodged bullets crossing France in 1944, and my generation is afraid of the flu. When the hell did the American male start listening to Doctors?  I’m not sure how I am going forward but I am NOT going to fear the flu. I am going out and spending money to do my part to save what economy we have left. I don’t want my kids to have to deal with the real Great Depression.
MAGA

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Offline jabberwoki

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2020, 05:37:38 PM »
Atta boy I`m doing the same thing, stupidity and fear will do the most damage, time to man up.
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Offline Heiny57

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2020, 06:37:51 PM »
And I forgot to add, as far as tanks in Arizona, I heard of plans to stop Mexicans from flooding the border. Could be an issue.
MAGA

If you can’t fix it with a hammer, it must be electrical.

Offline Lookin4_67GalaxieConv

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2020, 11:07:53 PM »
WTF?
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Offline walrus

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2020, 07:12:47 AM »

Offline highland512

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #35 on: April 06, 2020, 07:54:57 AM »
There is not a doubt in my mind that this was an engineered virus. It started in a meat market blocks away from a chinese lvl 4 bio research facility...............how convenient.

I think the media is blowing this out of the water as well. If they would start reporting it as "There is a flu going around that you have a 98.7% chance of surviving if you catch it." people would chill out.

Offline bonneyman

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #36 on: April 06, 2020, 11:19:25 AM »
There is not a doubt in my mind that this was an engineered virus. It started in a meat market blocks away from a chinese lvl 4 bio research facility...............how convenient.

I think the media is blowing this out of the water as well. If they would start reporting it as "There is a flu going around that you have a 98.7% chance of surviving if you catch it." people would chill out.

While the virus does seem to be quite potent I agree the media and talk show hype is far more dangerous.

Offline Lookin4_67GalaxieConv

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2020, 04:06:46 PM »

APRIL 6TH, 2020
WALSH: We Have Become A Police State, And None Of Us Should Be Okay With That

On Saturday, police in Kansas City “intervened” to shut down a parade of elementary school teachers. The staff of John Fiske Elementary School decided to organize the parade as a way to boost the morale of their students and encourage them in their new distance learning adventure. All of the teachers and administrators were in their own cars. There was literally no chance whatsoever of any virus being transmitted from car to car. But a spokeswoman for the police later explained, after the elicit gathering was descended upon by law enforcement, that the celebration of learning was not “necessary” or “essential.”

Two days before the Kansas City community was saved from the threat of cheerful elementary school teachers waving to children from their sedans, police in Malibu arrested a man who was caught paddle boarding in the ocean. Two boats and three additional deputies in vehicles were called to the scene of the non-essential joyride. How could a man out by himself in the Pacific possibly contract or spread the coronavirus? Nobody knows. But orders are orders, after all. And so the man was pulled out of the ocean and hauled away in handcuffs.

Not far from this harrowing scene, the San Diego sheriff’s department was giving out citations to people who’d committed the nefarious crime of “watching the sunset” on the beach. At around the same time, over on the east coast, Pennsylvania state police were pulling over and ticketing a woman who, according to the citation, was “going for a drive.” You may think that going for a drive when you’ve been locked in your home for three weeks is indeed a rather essential activity. And you may also think that there is essentially zero risk of contracting or transmitting the virus while you drive along a country road in the rural county of York, Pennsylvania. But none of that matters. The politicians have spoken. You may leave your home only for the reasons they decree.

A woman in Minnesota was recently pulled over and ticketed for two offenses: First, driving with a canceled license, which seems fair. But second, for violating her state’s stay-at-home order. She said she’d gone to Taco Bell and before that had visited her storage unit. Why should one be essential and not the other? Who knows. That is up for the politicians to decide. The point is that you can’t just go out and move around as you please. What do you think this is? A free country?

Officials in other parts of the nation have banned essential retailers from selling non-essential items like mosquito repellent. I suppose the prevention of West Nile and malaria are no longer considered essential. The mayor of Port Isabel, Texas, has decided, for whatever reason, that residents may not travel with more than two people in their vehicles. What if you’re a single parent with two kids? Well, sorry, one of your kids is out of luck. It’s not clear how this rule will be enforced, but some states have made that easier on themselves by setting up checkpoints to stop and question every car that passes through. A driver from New York who gets caught in Florida might face 60 days in jail. I should stop here to remind you that Florida and New York are places in the United States of America, not Soviet Russia.

Meanwhile, protestors outside of abortion clinics in California and North Carolina have been arrested for violating their state’s stay-at-home orders, despite the fact that they were following the protocols of social distancing, not to mention that obscure legal artifact known as the First Amendment. But the First Amendment has officially been neutralized, as the multiple pastors arrested for holding worship services have found out. All of this may seem quite oppressive and gestapo-ish, but a police chief in Colorado put those worries aside by explaining that the act of leaving your house and going outside is not a right but a “privilege” that can be revoked if it is “misused.” A prosecutor in Ohio, exploding in a fit of rage during a radio interview, said that those who defy his state’s stay-at-home order are committing “felonious assault” and if you’re guilty of that, you can “sit your butt in jail, sit there and kill yourself.”

Again, I remind you: this is the United States of America. Or at least it used to be.

Apologists for our newly established police state will tell me that states and localities have the authority to impose restrictions in an emergency. That is true, but the question of how far their authority actually goes is complicated, and in this case made even more complicated by the fact that these stay-at-home orders, in many cases, are based not on a current medical emergency in the respective state, but on models that forecast the possibility of an emergency in the future. For example, Minnesota is under a stay-at-home order despite having only 29 coronavirus deaths among a population of over 5 million. Perhaps the situation will get worse. Perhaps not. The point is that there is no current emergency in Minnesota or many of the other states currently under lockdown. There is, rather, a model that projects an emergency. And if projected emergencies can justify the effective nullification of the Bill of Rights, where is the limit? Haven’t we now granted the government the power to seize near-total control on the basis of any real or phantom threat?

And there are other problems. We don’t know that these lockdowns will actually have the effect of saving lives. It’s possible, as Dr. Fauci has admitted himself, that the virus could come roaring back to life whenever we emerge from our homes. It’s also possible that the illness came to America in November, December, or January, aboard any of the hundreds of thousands of travelers from China who poured into our country during that span. If that’s the case, then the viral horse has long since left the barn, and the lockdowns are obliterating our national economy and driving millions into ruin for minimal preventative gain. So we have, then, a series of indefinite stay-at-home orders based on dubious models, and dubious projections, with a dubious chance of success, and which often outlaw behavior that could not even plausibly put anyone at risk from the disease that may or may not, or maybe already has, become epidemic in the states where these laws have been enacted. Is that good enough to justify treating Americans like subjects in a communist dictatorship?

I would argue that nothing could ever justify such a thing. Indeed, the First and Fourth Amendments — the provisions of the Bill of Rights that seem to be having the worst time of it, recently — serve no purpose and have no reason to exist if they can be canceled or overridden whenever the government might have a specially compelling reason to do so. It is only when the government has a specially compelling reason to violate the amendments that the amendments have any function. After all, we really don’t need them during the times that the government has no interest in infringing on them. It seems that if we toss aside our right to assembly, our right to practice our religion, our right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, etc., whenever the government insists that such protections are hazardous to our health, then we might as well not have the rights in the first place. It’s like locking a criminal in a cell but giving him the key to open it along with a stern warning to only use the key if he has a very good reason. Doesn’t the key make the cell a rather pointless accessory? Sure he might remain in it sometimes, but only when he wants to. And it’s precisely when he wants to be behind bars that you don’t need the bars at all.

I’m not suggesting that state governments should do nothing in response to the coronavirus. I am suggesting that they shouldn’t have the power to do whatever the hell they want, for whatever reason they want, to whatever extent they want, for however long they want, with whatever penalty they want. Which is what is happening now all across the country. Governments can and should act justly and prudently to respond to threats that endanger their citizens lives. But there is little in the way of justice and prudence in these measures.
boop/bop/beep

Offline bonneyman

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2020, 06:23:20 PM »
The mayor of Chicago just defiantly excused her going out and getting a haircut while forbidding her constituents from doing the same. The laws are for little people.

Offline RustFarmer

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #39 on: April 09, 2020, 06:28:00 AM »
Probably not an engineered virus.  It is mutating, but they think we can make a vaccine for it.  The mutations are being used to track its spread.  Most of our cases came from Europe, not China.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-nyt-new-york-coronavirus-europe-genomes-20200409-iti55bz5crbatn2xo5a56sdzda-story.html

In hindsight we should have closed our borders to everyone Feb 01.  The few that got through before that could have been managed with aggressive contact tracing. US citizens returning from business or vacation should have been made to wait in a secure quarantine area (Hawaii ?) until they tested safe (not just taking their temp).  Yeah it would have inconvenienced some jet-setters and they would have bitched and moaned.  Too bad for them.

Hard to say how things will change once this is over.  A large part of the US population on both the right and left are anti-science.  We will probably continue to be a nation of morons lead by morons elected by morons.

Offline DeadNutz

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #40 on: April 09, 2020, 08:29:50 AM »

Hard to say how things will change once this is over.  A large part of the US population on both the right and left are anti-science.  We will probably continue to be a nation of morons lead by morons elected by morons.

Please don't call me a moron. I prefer the term deplorable. :great:

Offline fatfillup

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #41 on: April 09, 2020, 09:20:45 AM »
I don't know its anti science, its just that theories get accepted as fact too quickly.  Too often, the science changes as new info comes in (which is fine) but changes made on the earlier info can have serious effects on lives and businesses

Three come to mind quickly

Food pyramid (upside down)
Global cooling and new ice age (70's)
Eggs are bad for you (cholesterol)

Science, without alarmism, tempered with some common sense might go along way to get folks to be more accepting



Offline bonneyman

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #42 on: April 09, 2020, 10:19:39 AM »
Probably not an engineered virus.  It is mutating, but they think we can make a vaccine for it.  The mutations are being used to track its spread.  Most of our cases came from Europe, not China.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-nyt-new-york-coronavirus-europe-genomes-20200409-iti55bz5crbatn2xo5a56sdzda-story.html

In hindsight we should have closed our borders to everyone Feb 01.  The few that got through before that could have been managed with aggressive contact tracing. US citizens returning from business or vacation should have been made to wait in a secure quarantine area (Hawaii ?) until they tested safe (not just taking their temp).  Yeah it would have inconvenienced some jet-setters and they would have bitched and moaned.  Too bad for them.

Hard to say how things will change once this is over.  A large part of the US population on both the right and left are anti-science.  We will probably continue to be a nation of morons lead by morons elected by morons.

Rush just mentioned the other day that they still don't have a vaccine for the AIDS virus - and that started in the 1980's.  :-\

I don't think a vaccine is coming anytime soon.

Offline bonneyman

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #43 on: April 09, 2020, 10:20:53 AM »
I don't know its anti science, its just that theories get accepted as fact too quickly.  Too often, the science changes as new info comes in (which is fine) but changes made on the earlier info can have serious effects on lives and businesses

Three come to mind quickly

Food pyramid (upside down)
Global cooling and new ice age (70's)
Eggs are bad for you (cholesterol)

Science, without alarmism, tempered with some common sense might go along way to get folks to be more accepting

You forgot Y2K. All the scare tactics and panic buying that went on in 1999 - and then literally nothing major happened.

Offline RustFarmer

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #44 on: April 09, 2020, 10:59:28 AM »
You have to act and make decisions based on data that is known.  Doing nothing is also a decision, and many times has poor results.

Climate change is real, and will become a big problem.  Morons on the right deny it.  Morons on the left won't accept the fact that more nuclear fission plants are the only solution.  Renewables will not meet our needs because of cloudy and calm (no wind) days.  Even if renewables could provide the total amount of energy we need, technology for the Grid and Storage currently fail in providing that energy at the time and location needed.  Future potential Grid and Storage technology do not appear meet these needs either.   Coal related pollution in the USA causes 13,000 premature deaths every year.

COVID-19 is not the Flu.  COVID-19 is not just a "big city problem".  It has manifested in big cites first, but it is coming to rural areas.  Best estimates for a vaccine are Spring 2021.  Or later.  Or never.

Offline slip knot

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #45 on: April 09, 2020, 11:01:41 AM »
Science is too easily politicized. I don't have enough trustable info to draw a conclusion on whether or not this is an engineered virus or not.

But looking at the number I don't see what all of the hype was for. We basically took a booming economy and shut it down over a virus that has a very high survival rate 97-98%. Had we not had the hype we would be commenting about how bad the flu bug was this year.

Whats scary to me is to see how woefully inadequate our emergency systems are staffed/supplied. We are extremely vulnerable. If we were to have a major catastrophic event where we see 20% fatalities were doomed. and don't think our enemies haven't noticed.

I can agree with the moron statement tho, Watching the reactions when the socialist bowed out yesterday was amusing.

Offline highland512

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #46 on: April 09, 2020, 11:04:19 AM »
This "lock down" business needs to end quickly or we will be in a much worse situation than we are already in. I am afraid many more people will die from suicide, black market crime, or starvation from the suffering resulting from a market collapse.

 If the people and business owners just went on with life and opened up for business and went back to work what would the nanny state do? They cant throw us all in jail.     

Offline slip knot

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2020, 11:18:58 AM »
I don't know about throwing you in jail but I'm seeing people getting fined in other parts of the country. I've noticed our police force doing way more traffic stops that usual. don't know if its to enforce the isolation bit or for muni fundraising. since the stores have shut down the sales tax revenue has bottomed out. Gonna see some tough times in the future, tax wise.

Offline RustFarmer

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2020, 11:28:06 AM »
A dystopian view:

https://www.csis.org/analysis/which-covid-19-future-will-we-choose

Scenario 3: Worst Case – Decline and Catastrophe

Social distancing measures are implemented and enforced in a fragmented, ineffectual manner across the United States. The federal government fails altogether to deploy a national testing and contact tracing system and to coordinate the delivery of critical medical supplies to the urban hot spots.

Chronic shortages of PPE persist as the pandemic worsens globally, causing demand to surge while supply remains low. This leads to exceptionally high, sustained infection and death rates among health care workers, imposing deep and lasting damage to the health system and crippling the national response for several months.

No effective therapies are discovered, health systems become overwhelmed as the virus continues to spread, and the supply of critical medical equipment (e.g., PPE, ventilators, and ICU beds) fails to keep up with demand. Overwhelmed hospitals fail, worsening health outcomes for both Covid-19 patients and for other hospital patients (e.g., heart attack, cancer, stroke, car accidents) and increasing death rates across the board.

The total number of Covid-19 deaths in the United States ranges between 1.5 and 2.2 million by the end of 2021.

Large segments of the world are unable to control the virus for extended periods, and the United States remains vulnerable to the reintroduction of the virus, forcing the U.S. government to keep its borders firmly shut and barriers to trade and travel high.

A safe and effective vaccine remains elusive, 5-10 years distant. Natural immunity does not last a long time, making those who recover susceptible to reinfection and impeding safe return to work and schools across large portions of the country. The stimulus packages are insufficient to avert deep and lasting damage to the economy. Entire sectors of the U.S. economy are nationalized.

As death rates rise and the economic crisis deepens, widespread, violent disorder intensifies, requiring a significant deployment of the U.S. military.

Offline Heiny57

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2020, 11:54:31 AM »
Then there are morons who think they are experts in everything.       :93:
MAGA

If you can’t fix it with a hammer, it must be electrical.

Offline RustFarmer

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2020, 12:21:00 PM »
Then there are morons who think they are experts in everything.       :93:

Maybe so.

I think history will look back at this as a lot of missed opportunities due to politics and human nature.

Part of why we are in this mess is the dismissal of experts and science for political reasons.

It cannot be said that this came out of the blue and no one could have expected a pandemic.

Our own Government conducted a simulation of an eerily similar scenario last year.  How much did that cost?  Did we learn anything from it?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimson_Contagion

The Crimson Contagion Scenario:
"In less than two months the virus had infected 110 million Americans, killing more than half a million. The report issued at the conclusion of the exercise outlines the government's limited capacity to respond to a pandemic, with federal agencies lacking the funds, coordination, and resources to facilitate an effective response to the virus."
« Last Edit: April 09, 2020, 12:29:38 PM by RustFarmer »

Offline RustFarmer

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2020, 12:39:17 PM »
and don't think our enemies haven't noticed.

Exactly.  I think we are safe.  I hope.

I do think some countries may have civil wars because of this.  Iran, North Korea, Middle East, Africa?

Big part of why China under reported.  The ruling party has to keep the population uninformed.

Offline Lookin4_67GalaxieConv

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2020, 01:21:04 PM »
You have to act and make decisions based on data that is known.  Doing nothing is also a decision, and many times has poor results.

Climate change is real, and will become a big problem.  Morons on the right deny it.  Morons on the left won't accept the fact that more nuclear fission plants are the only solution.  Renewables will not meet our needs because of cloudy and calm (no wind) days.  Even if renewables could provide the total amount of energy we need, technology for the Grid and Storage currently fail in providing that energy at the time and location needed.  Future potential Grid and Storage technology do not appear meet these needs either.   Coal related pollution in the USA causes 13,000 premature deaths every year.

COVID-19 is not the Flu.  COVID-19 is not just a "big city problem".  It has manifested in big cites first, but it is coming to rural areas.  Best estimates for a vaccine are Spring 2021.  Or later.  Or never.

Climate is always changing.  The key questions:

1) Are extreme climate events materially affected by man's activities? 

2) If so, how can they be mitigated? 

Going back to an economy with emissions consistent with what we had in 1800 is not an option.
boop/bop/beep

Offline RustFarmer

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2020, 03:18:31 PM »
Going back to an economy with emissions consistent with what we had in 1800 is not an option.

I don't think we can completely replace all uses of fossil fuels.  Having a goal of being a fossil fuel free country is unrealistic.  However some current uses of fossil fuel could be switched to electric.  Electric water heaters.  Electric cars for people who live in cities.  Heat pumps work well in some parts of the US.  Probably work just fine in GA, maybe not as well in MI.  I don't Think SKfarmer will ever farm with a battery powered tractor.  Some truck freight could be moved to rail which is much more efficient, even with diesel locomotives.  The Trans-Siberian railroad is electric, why doesn't the US have an electric coast to coast freight railroad?

Energy is useful stuff.  You can't have a first world society without it.  Hospitals, factories, and schools all need it.  We should be building a lot more nuclear fission plants.  You can even do carbon sequestration with cheap nuclear energy.  So SK and all the other farmers could still run their tractors, and a factory or tree farm somewhere could pull an equivalent amount of carbon out of the atmosphere.  Scientists could genetically engineer a Frankentree or Franken algae that would grow twice as fast.  A Chemical Engineer friend of mine was working on a cellulosic ethanol project.  They fed genetically engineered bacteria carbon monoxide and waste cellulose and made ethanol.  The guy was brilliant.  One of the smartest persons I have ever met.  He was also addicted to nicotine.  Never got to retire, died of lung cancer at 62.

So yes, if we did all the above we could still use fossil fuels in applications that require them, and get to the net amount of CO2 we were pumping out in 1800.

Offline fatfillup

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2020, 04:05:55 PM »
Rustfarmer, its funny that you mention nuclear fission plants as I remember reading about them in high school or college in the 70's and thought it was a brilliant concept.  Is any country using them?  Are they doable? 

I also remember that France had a fair number of small nuclear plants that ran their grid.  If so, they seem to be able to do it safely. 

I am not against having cleaner energy if it is in fact cleaner and reasonably priced.  I dislike legislation that kills industries with a stroke of the pen without regard to cost.

Offline DeadNutz

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2020, 04:36:12 PM »
We were going gangbusters building the steam equipment for nuclear power plants in the late 70's. Then that movie China Syndrome came out, then Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden raising a ruckus about nukes and then 3 Mile Island and the industry came to a screeching halt in the 80's. We built equipment for a new Hanford plant and they never finished it. I remember stenciling Fukushima on steam equipment headed there.

At least the last nuke plant I worked on in AZ, Palo Verde, provides a good amount of work for the wife as they do the turbine bearings.

Offline RustFarmer

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #56 on: April 09, 2020, 05:14:43 PM »
Phil, all the world's nuke plants are fission.  Fusion is the Sci-Fi dream that is off in the future somewhere.

Point is that Fission is doable, safe, and working now.  Pollution from coal has caused more far more premature deaths than Fission plants ever have.

The French (those engineering geniuses that brought us the Peugeot and the Citroen) get 75% of their electricity from nuclear energy.  France is the world's largest net exporter of electricity due to its very low cost of generation, and gains over €3 billion per year from this.

The USA gets only 20% of our electricity from Nuclear.  And we invented it!

Offline walrus

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #57 on: April 10, 2020, 01:57:49 AM »
Probably not an engineered virus.  It is mutating, but they think we can make a vaccine for it.  The mutations are being used to track its spread.  Most of our cases came from Europe, not China.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-nyt-new-york-coronavirus-europe-genomes-20200409-iti55bz5crbatn2xo5a56sdzda-story.html

In hindsight we should have closed our borders to everyone Feb 01.  The few that got through before that could have been managed with aggressive contact tracing. US citizens returning from business or vacation should have been made to wait in a secure quarantine area (Hawaii ?) until they tested safe (not just taking their temp).  Yeah it would have inconvenienced some jet-setters and they would have bitched and moaned.  Too bad for them.

Hard to say how things will change once this is over.  A large part of the US population on both the right and left are anti-science.  We will probably continue to be a nation of morons lead by morons elected by morons.

Maine CDC tracked the start of Corona in Maine to one salesman. Apparently he/she spread it all over before coming here.  Not sure where this person came from or what they were selling but I assume its one of those folks who either didn't know they had Covid or ignored it and kept on working.

Offline slip knot

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #58 on: April 10, 2020, 09:33:40 AM »
one salesman infected Maine , wow. but not too unusual. the local rehab hospital caught it from a Doctor. Seems you can feel fine and still be an active carrier. Makes it hard to decide when to go to work or stay home. Every 2-3 days our supervisors are changing their minds about when to return to work. first it was 14 days without symptoms, now its 4 days without a fever but you gotta wear a mask for two weeks. No body really knows WTF to do.

Offline bonneyman

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2020, 09:54:33 AM »
Something just hit me this morning watching the news of all the oil tankers being docked offshore loaded in the Gulf as most every land facility is full. What happens when hurricane season starts?  :-\

Offline highland512

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Re: Post virus world changes
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2020, 07:59:32 AM »
The ships will move and anchor out of the path of the storm.

Offline Heiny57

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MAGA

If you can’t fix it with a hammer, it must be electrical.