why I am glad to be represented by a union...

[TexasT]

https://www.yourtango.com/career/harworking-employee-spent-15-years-company-fired-5-minute-meeting

though it didn't help at the last employer as they just shut the operations down. I did find the current employer and it is union also.
I know the Almighty dollar is king and I spent the better part of my adult life chasing them. I'll not be partaking in moving and chasing money any more. just too much for my old self.

the corporate greed and general lack of respect for the working class is coming to the top of people's agenda. these unions are getting the concessions and money the rank and file deserve. we are entering a time when this gen z is small like the Gen x and the boomers are retiring finally. this leaves two small generations and the large contingent of millennials. if you need people to run that business, they better get ready to pony up the wages and benefits.
corporate profits are just unpaid wages the labor didn't receive.

I hope everyone is well.

[bonneyman]

I think that unions were a good defense against employer abuse but nowadays they gotta be careful what they wish for. Sure, the union can strike and make a company make concessions but you gotta walk that fine line. The company could agree, then close up or go bankrupt. Like that yellow truck company. Sur there were certainly other factors at work but the strike "winning" may have just made then throw in the towel.
Then the car makers strike, and they finally conceded, now I'm hearing car sales are tanking. To pay them increased benefits they have to raise prices, and i can't believe what the stickers saying.

So, I'm wondering where this is gonna end?

[skfarmer]

i can see both sides of union and non union. unions did some great things in the past and maybe they are doing some now. what is not arguable is that they have always included  and been some what involved with some on the more seedy side. even to the extent of organised crime.

i don't have a lot of respect for the automakers but i also think they got screwed . at the end of the day we will all pay much more new vehicles and replacement parts.

tell me who won there?

[slip knot]

I've had 3 ex union guys come to work for me. They all worked for a local aluminum company that went tits up. They all hated it. The high voltage electrician wasn't allowed to change a light bulb because that was the I&E guys job. All of them have tales like that.

Wages will have to rise regardless of union status. The median wage in this area can't afford to buy the median home in this area. Thats not tenable, long term. My company just transitioned to a younger management team. They're all in their 30s. they see nothing wrong with employees jumping ship and going elsewhere for more money. The comment has been made "that makes them a more rounded person to work different places". All well and good except my job vacancies require state certification and if your willing to let your certified guys go and not offer up enough money to attract someone else who's certified then we're screwed. My operations staff is at 60% staffing currently and no applicants in sight. it's all about the dollars. I used to compete with the petrochemical plants for operators, now I compete with Dairy Queen.

If companies want to attract quality employees then there going to have to offer quality pay.

[Lookin4_67GalaxieConv]

Unions were started out of necessity and absolutely needed in some industries.  Over time though, it felt like the balance of power changed to the union side.  A lot of them became like government bureaucracies.  Continually getting bigger and taking over more and more.  And like S/K pointed out, the organized crime component with some of them, and also being heavily Democrat leaning.  Ideally a company will be responsive enough to their employees to make a union unnecessary.  I know in the auto industry, the unions have gotten more than enough perks over the years and it's the customers that end up bending over in the end.  Industries that rely on skilled labor should realize if they don't address issues labor is having, a union might, so which solution do they prefer?

[bonneyman]

All people have the sin nature, and everyone is basically selfish. Looking out for number one. And when you get a group of people like that together, some folks are gonna get pushed and then push back.

I agree companies - if they are smart - would pay their people enough so a union is unnecessary. But bosses get greedy, stockholders demand more profit, and the normal Joes doing the actual work want more fair pay. Somethings gotta give. And with most people just looking out for themselves there's gonna be sparks flying. I ain't got any easy answers but if things don't change massively there's going to be a collapse and the only ones who are gonna be left are the farmers - because they can grow food and everybody has to eat!

[skfarmer]

the only ones who are gonna be left are the farmers - because they can grow food and everybody has to eat!

are you sure of that? i have done ok and am doing ok because we have chosen to be frugal.

at the end of the day, we are in a massively  capitol  intensive business. let's just for conversations sake i have a million dollars in equipment and i have 5 million dollars in land. now throw in a few hundred thousand in inputs like fuel, rent, seed fertilizer and manpower. maybe i am worth more than that and maybe i am worth less. that part is irrelevant, what is relevant is that no matter what i have i am pretty much middle class. some years  lower, some mid mid, some upper middle.

as of late, land prices are off the chart, new machinery and a lot of used stuff is beyond reach. some inputs have moderated but remain high and grain prices are signicantly lower. now throw in the mercy of the weather, not a lot of young farmers and the average age of the us farmer is 57.5. ironically almost the same age i am.  what am i getting at? some farms are doing very well but a lot of them are just getting by. if things get tough the only choice to be made is to liquidate assets. as they get older many farmers are doing just that.


without getting too personal i settled my parent's estate a few years ago. my sisters all received very large amounts of cash. some of it from my parents and some of it from me as i inherited some of the land and purchased some of it at a preset price. one of my sisters had a discussion with me  about it. she said that she would have liked some land and was disappointed because of it. fortunately my parents knew the difference between fair and equal, wants and needs. i told them they got money to do with as they wish, home improvements, vacation property. investments whatever they wanted. i got land but also got debt (to pay them) and who wants more of that at my age. i think/hope she got my point.

not sure if all of this rambling makes sense but my point is this. don't assume if things get tough farmers will be better off because at the end of the day my farm does not run without, fuel, seed, fertilizer , chemical,  parts, and maybe most importantly land or dirt.

[bonneyman]

Not meant as a dismissal, sk. I'm sure you've got your share of struggles and living off the land isn't easy.

I just meant that when the chips are down, farmers know how to grow food. City dwellers and most other Americans idea of food is the grocery store. When things collapse at least you and farmers like you will somehow be able to feed yourselves when all the rest of us will be fighting over scraps.
I sure can't feed myself out of my garden!

[skfarmer]

no offense taken.

my point is that although i am more diverse than some farms, most farms are not very diverse anymore. i don't produce dairy, i don't produce vegetables and my few garden boxes are a small hobby. i sure could not live on them.  at the end of the day, we are all in this together.  if shit hits the fan, my stockpile of fuel, guns and ammo may be worth more than most things.

[TexasT]

Like that yellow truck company. Sur there were certainly other factors at work but the strike "winning" may have just made then throw in the towel.

I had a front row seat to that debacle. the week before they ceased operations the MGMT wanted to suspend the health and welfare benefits. Not according to the contract and if it happened we would have struck. They rank and file has already given up 10% and another 5% of the wages about fifteen yrs ago. this amounted to billions in concessions. Sad they shut the doors but the govt loaned em $700 million dollars and the mgmt seemed to have lined their pockets as the bonus money never stopped flowing.

Bottom line to me is the MGMT ran it into the ground and the labor let them. all said and done we were all looking for work.

I can't fix it but that person in the original post pretty much got the shaft with no one looking out for them .

I can't imagine trying to farm in this day and age. I do grow a lot of things. I like hydroponics but we do a lot in the dirt too. Mostly microgreens, larger leafy greens and such. Healthy stuff for salads and keeping the insulin levels in check. I'm not getting any younger and my better half is diabetic so we really watch what we eat.

There was a time when you couldn't have paid me to join the union but that ship sailed decades ago. I can't even imagine not having union representation any more. The contract is bargained and agreed to by both sides. There may be concessions from either or both sides. Way better not to loose your job because new MGMT shows up and decides they don't like you or think they can get it done cheaper.

[fatfillup]

corporate profits are just unpaid wages the labor didn't receive.

I will address the quoted statement after these comments

I have never worker for a company that was large enough for a union so I have no personal experience plus I have been self employed for 35 years.

I absolutely see the need for unions in large companies where a bean counter can say if we quit paying some benefit, we will save big dollars and boost profits without regard to the effect it has on workers.  And for keeping work places safe though I would assume OSHA should handle that.

What I dislike about unions is the way they stand up for workers who need to be disciplined or fired and it can't be done because of the union.  I also dislike the political influence unions peddle but I can say the same about corporate political influence.

As to comment about corporate profits being unpaid wages,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,WTF.  Do investors not deserve a return on their investment?  Are union pension funds not invested to earn a return to pay the pensions of retirees?  Who here is not a stockholder in some type of investment fund.  When I hear statements that are so far over the top, it just nullifies the rest of the arguments someone if making. 

Sorry but its a pet peeve of mine.   

[Lookin4_67GalaxieConv]

To add to what Phil said, remember businesses aren't started with a goal to break even.

[TexasT]

x2 on the making money but when wall street keeps getting bailed out by the govt and main street takes it in the shorts I find that quite distasteful. I understand why the bailouts are done and the quantitative easing to keep those markets going. but without risk, there should be no reward. when a CEO and his buddies on the board take tens or even a hundred times the compensation out that the rank n file take home , I have a problem with that. I know that small business is an employer of over half the labor in this country and I don't have a big problem as these type places seem to take good care of their labor. It is the multinational type corps who seem to think that it is all legal and those EPA fines or OSHA fines are just a cost of doing business. They don't seem to care much past the next quarter earning report. The GM, John Deere, Mack/Volvo truck, Tesla, VW, BMW that don't seem to be taking care and it comes to a strike or the others to get organized. These are the types I'm talking of. Lest we get my soapbox out for the food producers and there sugar addicting product that are wrecking the health of the last, this and the next generation.

I am glad we have different views and can post about it. I love to see the other side of stuff. Some I might just agree with and other I don't at this time.

[slip knot]

As a person who dabbles in the self employment game, If I wasn't making money I would certainly bail on it. But I do agree thet the CEOs shouldn't be making 100X what the employees make. And the golden parachute BS has got to go too.

A while back our county hospital CEO got in some trouble and had to leave the hospital. He got 2 years of pay because it was written into his contract. When I asked "who the F***would write such a contract" I was asked to leave the county commisioners court.. Before I got out of the room the next two guys signed up to speak asked the exact same question. Half the commisioners resigned that night.

[fatfillup]

TexasT, we are in agreement on many things here.

Bailouts, thank the people we send to Washington.  And the political system is rigged against any kind of major change.

Big companies don't care about individual customers or employees, we are a number in an algorithm and if we don't fit, good bye.

Executive compensation is out of hand, greed is evil and comes from below.  Isn't it Japan that at one time limited how much top folks could make over the lowest worker?  17 times as much or something like that.  I do know they did take a long term view for business being sustainable over time and folks didn't jump jobs every few years.  Their society and culture were much different, looking out for the whole and not the individual.  I suppose a rising tide lifts all ships mentality.


You got room on your sugar soap box for me?  Pure poison, just a slow acting one.

The older I get and the more I see, the more I am glad I am a Christian who knows this earth is not my home and my time here is a mere drop in the bucket compared to an eternity in paradise.  This world will never be right or fair and evil will prevail,,,,,,,,,,,for a while

[bonneyman]

Far too many businesses are focused on money. Far too many employees are focused on money, too. You have virtually every single soul chasing after the limited number of dollars, and someone is bound to get shorted.

Individuals need to focus on vocation. What God has called you - and gifted you - to do. Yes we need money to live. But if that's all you're after you're bound to come up frustrated. Do what you're good at, whatever it is. Do it well, put your heart into it. If you can't do that at your job, quit and find a job where you can. Honest work is fulfilling, and eventually you will reach a place of contentment.

Bosses need to focus on their most important asset - their employees. Yes you need profit to stay in business. But if you focus on profit and only your funds to the exclusion of all else you will eventually lose your business and livelihood. Because you treat your people poorly they will get frustrated and leave, which then means you have to hire replacements. Training is expensive - constant retraining is bankrupting. Eventually folks will either form a union to force change or your business will get a rep and nobody will want to work for you. This is already happening. Businesses have responded by outsourcing where there is cheap labor with no unions, and now going to AI and automation. Shows everybody where they're focused on.
A businesses number one asset is its people. Invest in them, take care of them, treat them like you want to be treated. If they're not worth that investment, fire them and get people who are. There are good workers out there, and they're looking for good places to work. Be one of those places. Think long term - any investment in people will come back to blow-you-over bless you. I'm thinking the movie "Mr. Hollands Opus".

I've reached a point in my life where it seems I've fallen thru the cracks. Can't find work I can do, seems like I invested 30 years in HVAC for nothing other than keeping my own unit going. Kinda got me down. Then over the past 6 months I've gotten calls from 8-10 people I haven't talked to in years. Asking me where I've been, am I OK, and how glad they were to have me doing they're A/C over the years. How honest, affordable, and using out-of-the-box thinking to get things fixed. And I keep running into people like this. So maybe my life meant something after all.

[Uncle Buck]

Changing jobs was still easy at 50 YO. That was not the case at 60 YO. Even though my work was not in the trades, no one would touch me. Thirty years plus experience and two college degrees did not make a bit of difference.  After most of two years out of work with countless jobs applied for with either no reply, or not selected it became clear the issue was my age. Many of the jobs I failed to land I would not have wasted time applying to at 50. However,  I was shocked to not land even one when I started applying to them in desperation at 60 YO.

I finally went back to the one place I knew where my age would not be a factor.  I returned to work at the state where I had left years ago to find better pay. Fortunately,  the guy hiring was a guy that ironically I was instrumental in getting hired 15 years prior after he had been out of work for a long time, so I knew he would put me back to work and he did. In August I started back to work doing the same job I left years prior.

The state will pay you just enough money to keep you poor. That said, stress is zero, benefits are generous, and the job is solid and going nowhere.  I  learned my lesson. At soon to be 62 I plan to stay until I retire.

Age discrimination is real, I found out after experiencing it. Good luck ever proving it, I think you would have a bitch of a time!

[slip knot]

one of the reasons I see for business' to chase the profit dollar is the advent of the IRA. Everyones retirement is no longer tied to a company staying in business but to the stock market. There is a huge incentive to show a 1/4ly profit at all costs. If you dont then the stock price falls and people bail on your stock sending you into bankruptcy. We've been forced to chase the almighty dollar for ourselves if we want a reasonable retirement. 

[TexasT]

https://www.businessinsider.com/target-workers-caught-off-guard-by-stanley-cup-crackdown-2024-1

another in the at will employment lane, where there are rules and then there are rules that get enforced. I can see why they had the rule but don't see how a person at the Starbucks store in the store sold one to a "Customer" was getting over on the hold back. some of the other tales were a little less savory but in those cases a union could have filed the grievance and taken it to the mediation if needed. Just some hard working individuals getting crushed by that corporate Goliath.

[Lookin4_67GalaxieConv]

https://www.businessinsider.com/target-workers-caught-off-guard-by-stanley-cup-crackdown-2024-1

another in the at will employment lane, where there are rules and then there are rules that get enforced. I can see why they had the rule but don't see how a person at the Starbucks store in the store sold one to a "Customer" was getting over on the hold back. some of the other tales were a little less savory but in those cases a union could have filed the grievance and taken it to the mediation if needed. Just some hard working individuals getting crushed by that corporate Goliath.

Seems like there's likely more to the story, but if it's that cut and dried, she should sue Target.

As an aside, I know 'Business Insider' always presents pieces with an agenda, so I'm always a little wary when I read their articles.

[bonneyman]

Age discrimination is real, I found out after experiencing it. Good luck ever proving it, I think you would have a bitch of a time!

Yep, I think I'm getting hit with it. Apps and resumes sent for several years, can't even get an interview, returned phone calls, or emails. For awhile it was the COVID thing where lots of people worked remote. But now shops everywhere can't find people who want to work, have signs posted, you go in to talk to them and it's always, "We do applications on line now". I submit and never hear back.

Either it's my age - or my attitude of "I'm here to work, tell me what to do and it'll get done, plus I have my own tools and 40+ years of work experience.

[slip knot]

I interviewed an older guy (60ish) for an Instrumentation tech position last week. He's got a ton of experience. I'll probably be making him an offer this week. People are idiots to turn away older workers.

[goodfellow]

I interviewed an older guy (60ish) for an Instrumentation tech position last week. He's got a ton of experience. I'll probably be making him an offer this week. People are idiots to turn away older workers.

Absolutely true! People with experience (like Bonneyman) are a dream come true to some manufacturers, and yet some other industries are trying to move them out as quickly as possible to make room for less experienced but cheaper newbies.

It's amazing how many companies in my area (central Virginia) are looking for welders, electricians, plumber, bricklayers, and heavy equipment mechanics. Yet many of these companies don't want to hire older seasoned tradesmen because of the (perceived) higher long-term costs. I don't get it either, but whoever is advising these folks, they're doing these companies a huge disservice.

[muddy]

I interviewed an older guy (60ish) for an Instrumentation tech position last week. He's got a ton of experience. I'll probably be making him an offer this week. People are idiots to turn away older workers.

Absolutely true! People with experience (like Bonneyman) are a dream come true to some manufacturers, and yet some other industries are trying to move them out as quickly as possible to make room for less experienced but cheaper newbies.

It's amazing how many companies in my area (central Virginia) are looking for welders, electricians, plumber, bricklayers, and heavy equipment mechanics. Yet many of these companies don't want to hire older seasoned tradesmen because of the (perceived) higher long-term costs. I don't get it either, but whoever is advising these folks, they're doing these companies a huge disservice.

I think a lot of the mentality is that they will only get 5-10 yrs out of them and then have to hire a new guy anyway.



Sent from my twisted mind of the mudman

[slip knot]

I interviewed an older guy (60ish) for an Instrumentation tech position last week. He's got a ton of experience. I'll probably be making him an offer this week. People are idiots to turn away older workers.

Absolutely true! People with experience (like Bonneyman) are a dream come true to some manufacturers, and yet some other industries are trying to move them out as quickly as possible to make room for less experienced but cheaper newbies.

It's amazing how many companies in my area (central Virginia) are looking for welders, electricians, plumber, bricklayers, and heavy equipment mechanics. Yet many of these companies don't want to hire older seasoned tradesmen because of the (perceived) higher long-term costs. I don't get it either, but whoever is advising these folks, they're doing these companies a huge disservice.

I think a lot of the mentality is that they will only get 5-10 yrs out of them and then have to hire a new guy anyway.



Sent from my twisted mind of the mudman

3-5 years is about all We're getting out of any of the new employees we get. Out of my 15 employees, I have 3 that have 20yrs +, everyone else has 3 yrs or less. They get bored and move on to other jobs. I've had an I&C tech recently leave at 5 yrs and an operator interviewing for another job after 3yrs. There is no loyalty from the employees or employers any more. The younger folks have figured out you got to bounce from job to job to make more money. The older guy I'm looking to hire is 5yrs away from retirement. I'll be happy with 5 yrs.

[muddy]

I interviewed an older guy (60ish) for an Instrumentation tech position last week. He's got a ton of experience. I'll probably be making him an offer this week. People are idiots to turn away older workers.

Absolutely true! People with experience (like Bonneyman) are a dream come true to some manufacturers, and yet some other industries are trying to move them out as quickly as possible to make room for less experienced but cheaper newbies.

It's amazing how many companies in my area (central Virginia) are looking for welders, electricians, plumber, bricklayers, and heavy equipment mechanics. Yet many of these companies don't want to hire older seasoned tradesmen because of the (perceived) higher long-term costs. I don't get it either, but whoever is advising these folks, they're doing these companies a huge disservice.

I think a lot of the mentality is that they will only get 5-10 yrs out of them and then have to hire a new guy anyway.



Sent from my twisted mind of the mudman

3-5 years is about all We're getting out of any of the new employees we get. Out of my 15 employees, I have 3 that have 20yrs +, everyone else has 3 yrs or less. They get bored and move on to other jobs. I've had an I&C tech recently leave at 5 yrs and an operator interviewing for another job after 3yrs. There is no loyalty from the employees or employers any more. The younger folks have figured out you got to bounce from job to job to make more money. The older guy I'm looking to hire is 5yrs away from retirement. I'll be happy with 5 yrs.

Part of the "Bouncing" in my opinion is because the youngest don't seem to pick anything up or seem to learn much. They stay at a job for a bit till they get a better $ amount and move one. Not really improving themselves.

Sent from my twisted mind of the mudman

[slip knot]

I wish I could get those guys to go. Most of the ones I'm losing are pretty talented. They are the ones with ambition to do better. The talent challenged ones seem comfortable here. The Muni world relys on benefits to keep employees and the younger guys dont care about retirement or dental/vision. All they see is the $$ on the check.

[fatfillup]

Yeah, 3 to 5 years is about right for any type of employee

[bonneyman]

Sorry guys - I don't mean to complain. I've had a good run. Thirty years doing a job I liked, made a living at it, had the opportunity to pass on some knowledge to several guys. The sun has set - I need to accept it and move on.

I offered my apprentice the chance to learn HVAC (he's 27) but he declined, saying he really wants to referee basketball. Thought about donating my A/C tools to a job training center near me but couldn't get anyone to contact me. Walked into Panda Express to grab some lunch yesterday and they had a sign on the door saying $19 an hour to start. Couldn't believe it! Last part time job I had in A/C in 2018 I made $20 an hour. Now they get almost that much to run a wok? 

Weird how things have gotten. Have to do some serious re-evaluation and soul searching to figure out where to go from here.

[slip knot]

The world has changed Bman. I still see a lot of older folks working in the trades. Seems a lot of the younger folks dont want to put in the manual labor. Most of the hardware stores/old school lumber yards are staffed by older folks around here. Even the big orange and blue box stores have a bunch of older workers.
Maybe you need to re-evaluate what you can do. I got a friend that does commercial AC work but he was getting old/tired/burned out on it. He got into commercial kitchen work and is busier than ever. He just has to work some odd hours to accommodate the customer now.

[fatfillup]

Bman, went to Panda Express for the first time couple of months back.  Really enjoyed the  food and quick service.  Have been back several times, not that this is relevant to the conversation.


As to pay scales, its getting crazy.  $35 an hour to start as heavy equipment mechanic.  Young customer just went to work for Baltimore Gas and Electric as a truck mechanic.  He had some experience and is generally very mechanically inclined and has worked on lots of stuff.  Just got a few certifications and is up to $47.50 an hour.  That is all but $100,000 a year and he has been there 8 months.  I remember when $100k was big money and now its a living depending on where you live.